Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by S.J. Faerlind, Mar 24, 2013.
this is supposed to be a serious debate....lol
Darn it all that I can't rep you for comic relief
Because you have the face of an angel, a nice ass, and tits to die for... I'm going to totally agree with you here.
You were right, and I was wrong.
Believe me, if you were unattractive I wouldn't give you the time of day.
Oh c'mon Bel... most of the guys in those ads are gay.
You must have seen that photo of me by now... that my dear is a pic of a real man.
And don't try and tell me you noticed my vulnerable hazel green eyes and compassionate face... all you girls want is just what us guys want, the junk.
hehe well as long as they keep their mouths shut
and about that pic, i haven't seen it yet!!! as long as i haven't seen it, i have no idea what a real man really is haha lol
in advance: sorry SJ for making jokes in your thread you forgive me ??
Ask yourself - what is a geek? or a nerd - or a goth or a punk or an emo or a rocker or a hell's angel.
Preconceptions, assumptions and stereo types are part of how humanity deals with the fact that there are billions of us and that at any one point we might be interacting with 100s if not 1000s of different individuals through daily life. That is a mind boggling number of individuals and each one is as unique as the next; even within groupings of interest, gender, height, age etc... there are unique twists and turns to each and every person.
Trying to deal with that multitude is just impossible for our brains to take on - its too much. So we have stereo types. They don't exactly work perfectly, but they give a very broad and rough base line - from there we build upward into the individual.
This is somewhat of a modern nightmarish trap (esp for men but not exclusivly). If I am polite and hold the door a woman can now consider that I'm either being polite OR that I'm greatly insulting her. This is honestly what I'd call a rather extreme backlash from the desire to be independant and to have rights equal to that of men.
My honest view is that if someone offers to help you or holds the door or compliments you then - well - take it for what it is on the surface. It's a compliment and politeness. Now you might refuse sometimes and you've every right to if you want to put your own lightbulbs in, but I think that one should accept it as a compliment.
And yes some people do it because "you're a woman" and some will do because "you're old" and some will do it because "OMG you're a hot looking gal/guy".
This is a very true point, but you have to remember that stereo types are quick to birth and slow to die - especially since they often start based on a thread of truth and, as such, there is often always going to be someone around who does still fit the stereo type (even without knowing of it to "act" like they "should"). Things will change - look at how the visual image of the geek has shifted from a group of only men to now include women.
Okay so basically you had no good response to my answer?
And I'd rather hear I'm smart rather than having bodyparts to die for, cause they're (hopefully) not the reason I get somewhere in life and with people. But if we're going with the objectification line here *Slaps ass* nice body sweetheart!
Great point and this is actually where I hoped the argument would go... we objectify/simplify the people we deal with all the time, and not just by sex. And of course when pressed we know it's wrong and hardly ever accurate, but otherwise we'd become overwhelmed in the details of day to day life. I'm guessing evolution has wired our brains to do just that.
Ask yourself this question... if Taylor Swift was unattractive would anyone listen to, let alone buy her music?.. of course not.
She has nothing for a voice, her songs are purely pedestrian, and the musicianship is awful... she's very pretty and has a way about her, and boy has she been marketed to the hilt. Why has she sold millions and millions and millions of albums?
Unfortunately it's the world we live in, and I think we're all guilty of making it a less tolerable place for the ugly, for the misfit, for the outcast.
Response deep enough for ya?
Oh, and you are smart... for a girl.
I, for one, think Taylor Swift is ugly and has a pig-face. But that's not why I don't listen to her music. I don't listen to her music because it sucks.
The lead singer of my favourite band (Will Sheff of Okkervil River) is ugly as sin. But his voice is like a miracle to my ears.
Also, I am not effected by sexism because I do not let effect me. I view people as people. Not as men or women. While I may biologically be a woman, I don't identify as that. I identify as a person, with a mind, just like everyone else.
This is a tricky spot, trust me I have a similar sentiment. The problem with only being recognized as being human is that not everybody will comply to this and you also to a degree throw away assumed parts of culture which also baffles other people. Ultimately I've found that people think, therefore you are.
In some form or another you have been manipulated for loss or profit because of your sex, we can do a lot to fend for ourselves but in the end that is just making up one mind, there is a vast number of minds that aren't ours that have their own two cents.
I'll think about it....
Yet we don't need to know everything about every single person in the world. We get to know very few people relative to the entire human population and we gain in-depth information about only a very few people indeed. One of the life skills a human gains as they grow and develop is when to tune out irrelevant information. I don't understand why we "need" stereotypes in order to do that and interact with other people in day to day life. If I buy something from a person at the store, I could care less whether they are a "Goth" or a "Nerd". As long as they are capable of managing the transaction, that's all I need from them. Similarly, why would they care that I'm a "mom" so long as I pay for my purchases?
I have to wonder if there's simply an attitude of acceptance in society toward stereotypes and that's why they stick around. Believing them only means that we base our interactions on assumptions that may not even be real. I think that in some cases, relying on stereotypes to classify someone can be extremely detrimental. Wouldn't it be a surprise to stop on the side of the road to help a pretty lady whose car has broken down, only to discover that she pulls a gun on you and demands your wallet? That person is relying on a stereotype image to lure you in so they can hurt you. Unethical people in positions of power and authority hurt vulnerable people by taking advantage of stereotypes all the time too. It makes more sense to me to choose to stop and help that woman based on the fact that there is a risk involved and that I want to take it, rather than rush into it blindly based on a bad assumption.
I think this is indeed be a nightmare for people who had no intention of offending and I agree that some people take the concept waaay overboard. With the example I posted before, I wasn't talking about people being polite however. I don't get all bent out of shape if somebody opens a door for me. As far as I'm concerned, that's just common courtesy and I do that for plenty of other people too: men and women.
Where I get annoyed is when I've chosen to do something and people seek to take that choice away from me. I've had people grab stuff right out of my hands when I was just fine carrying it. I've also had people (usually men) push me out of the way and take my place when I went to do something. What that implies to me is this: "S.J. you can't be trusted to make your own decisions. Clearly you need to be saved from yourself and I'm the one to do it." I can hardly consider that as a compliment. I'm an adult, which means I'm totally responsible for my own actions and their consequences. If I get hurt, that's my fault, not anybody else's because they didn't save me.
I wouldn't have any problem with somebody who said, "That looks heavy. Would you like some help with that?" I might say "yes" or I might say "No thanks, I'm fine." As long as they respected my answer I wouldn't ever be offended that they asked in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, in that case they're just showing common courtesy while still respecting that I am fully capable of exercising my own judgement. Yet, it has been my experience that when people see a small woman they just assume that means she can't rely on her own judgement in certain circumstances. It's a ridiculous assumption. I've never hurt myself or anyone else in relying on my own judgement in these matters.
Another example: I once had a job as a student on a landscaping-crew for the summer. The boss would never let any of the girls on the crew operate the tractors or other "driving-type" vehicles. We were allowed to pull weeds, paint fences and use the hand-machines (like push-lawnmowers and trimmers), but the rest were off-limits to us. The guys on the crew (many of whom had never driven anything but a car before) were allowed to do everything.
I grew up doing this:
View attachment 8770
Forgive me for thinking that rule was just a little ridiculous.
It's my opinion that stereotypes and sexism inhibit humanity more than they help us sort each other out. How many skills have been under-valued and under-utilized because we based our evaluation of others on inaccurate information? It just doesn't make any sense to me. In light of that, I can't see why I would continue to buy into it.
Na, there's smart, less smart or not smart Not smart as a girl or boy
But the singer I love the most is ugly as f*ck. Wonder if that tells us more about what guys chose when it comes to music or girls? I think the main thing when people attracts to others arent the looks, its the charm and charisma, and even a super fugly person can have that.
Every job I've had has been minimum wage and I've never made less than anyone other than someone who was my supervisor.
I'm not saying sexism does't exist because it does. A lot of people are effected by it. I'm just not. I've been much more effected by racism than sexism, and no one has ever not taken me seriously because I have a vagina. I've had people not take me seriously because I'm white and because I'm young.
Then you are even more lucky than I! I'm pretty sure friends have distanced themselves from me just because of sex. People I've known for a long time maybe caught up in the idea that I love them so they become far more conservative about contacting and behaving normally in front of me. It insults me that they think I would be so feeble minded but I guess I don't reach out to contact most of them to begin with.
I completely agree. The nicest-looking person is detestable if they choose to be mean and nasty. Who would want to be around someone like that? Similarly, some people have that undefinable magnetism or they are warm and welcoming. Even if they aren't physically attractive, people are drawn to them anyway. Beauty always fades with time for everybody. I don't think it's a good idea for anyone to base their self esteem on it because inevitably, they're going to lose it sooner or later. Inner beauty, on the other hand, lasts forever.
This reminds me of one of the neatest encounters I've ever had with someone, someone who really couldn't have been more different than me. It took place twelve years ago flying out from Chicago on my way to Washington DC. While waiting in the terminal for the flight to start boarding there was about eight nuns all traveling together who sat near by. I was making a mental note on how ridiculous they look and that it's just my luck to have a bunch of old maids sit next to me... when I noticed the one that was dressed slightly different, like a nun in training I thought... and she was young and very pretty, even without makeup she was quite striking. She turned my way and saw me looking at her, and damn if she didn't give me a smile. I returned the smile and turned away, a bit embarrassed. As luck would have it when we boarded they all had seats in the same row as me, thank goodness I had the window. As everyone was getting settled in one of the older nuns leaned across the aisle and asked if I'd be nice enough to give up my window seat for one of their party who was taking her very first flight... it was the young lady in training! I tried to strike up a conversation but pretty much no go on that. After we took off and had been in the air for awhile a stewardess with the booze cart started serving drinks... when she got to our section I spoke up quite loudly, "I'm buying drinks for everyone on this row"... followed by laughter. The nuns knew I was poking fun at them and to my surprise they ordered wine. That was stereotype number one to bite the dust, which cost me $40. I thought nuns were forbidden to drink alcohol! The older nuns thanked me (with big smiles) and the young one sitting next to me, who was not drinking, started talking to me... and we talked and talked and talked, the entire flight.
It was one of the most amazing conversations I've ever had. We covered everything, life, her religion, my atheism, the experiences that led us to belief and non-belief, just amazing. She even cursed under her breath once. She was totally un-nun like, talking about things I didn't think nuns talked about. And somewhere between Chicago and DC I stopped thinking how insanely cool it would be to kiss her and instead just enjoyed her company.
Sometimes you just never know.
I've had a lot of similar experiences too... not with nuns mind you but with lots of people. It never ceases to amaze me that there's a real person under that stereotype and they almost always look nothing like their "cover image" does. Cool story, thanks!
love the nun story. thx. I have a terrible prejudice against 18 yo blonde girls with lots of makeup. i just assume a bunch of stuff about their values but invariably, for one reason or another, i end up talking with them, and against my will, liking them. LOL.
i haven't read the whole thread but i like the points being made about the need to categorise people in order to deal with the sheer numbers we need to deal with every day. i think we're all guilty of various prejudices as a result of our conditioning, even if the prejudice is about the people we consider to be prejudiced sometimes it's positive prejudice, sometimes negative, sometimes mild, sometimes extreme.
i went through a phase when i would walk through a shopping centre and imagine what everybody's skeletons looked like underneath their skin, all walking around. that was a good equaliser. I also quite regularly walk through crowded places just thinking in my head "i love you, i love you, i love you" to everyone i see (i don't say it out loud for fear of getting arrested). that's also a good experience.
i'm extremely lucky i've never been hugely negatively affected by sexism but i was extremely body-conscious til relatively recently (no doubt due to all the media focus) when i just decided i was tired with being enslaved by my body-image and decided i wouldn't get on the scales for a few years. i look at women in the pool or at the beach these days and instead of envying the skinny gals, i focus on who's smiling and laughing the most. that makes me like them most and want to be like them. happy in my skin. none of my role models or heroes are particularly thin or attractive, except the fantasy girls of course, but then again, they're mostly elves so a direct comparison isn't fare to myself
i know i'm lucky to live in a place and time that has allowed and does allow me to largely pursue my education and my dreams in freedom. i actually give thanks for that daily and try to donate to charities that help women in less fortunate circumstances. god knows there's enough of them
But I'm not so sure that it's only us guys that push these body issues on women.
It seems to me that often times women do it to each other, and of course the media and popular culture are awful in that regard, selling girls on all being skinny. As I've said before... women ought to jiggle!
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