Discussion in 'Polls' started by Kakashi, May 23, 2012.
No need to make them, Ray - Pretty sure they'll all do it of their own accord eventually.
No, no. That's what I meant lol... Everyone is kinda tired of it lulz.
Ray, there are tons of ppl who are attention whores by nurture. Its their own choice. Whether we should judge them is irrelevant. The fact that you can come out stronger first person doesn't mean everybody else should be that lucky. I can whore for attention b/c I didn't obtain what I want. But diff ppl have their own definitions of "what I want". If you think such ppl are unworthy of your sympathy, then knowing such a stance is good enough. No point going gungho-loco just b/c you wanna hammer your point across to ppl who can't accept what is being said. I'm not a saint and neither are the rest. Let alone you yourself.
Yuan, you know the funniest thing abt human nature? We tend to be the kind of monsters which we profess to despise the most. -.-'
Pfffft... Az, I thought you were trolling me for a bit (and if you are, I apologize for not being able to see it) but, yeah, you got a right to be an attention whore any way you want, but then I got the same right to call you out on it and blast you for it. I "Hammered home my point" because some people were not understanding it at all. Never said I was a saint but, if you hurt yourself 'for attention' and attention alone, then, yes, I'ma blast you to Hell and back.
No doubt there. Even people who have pissed me off seemed reflective of my own self in the past. I guess because I've gotten over that part of my life, I'm ticked off they are still wallowing in that mess.
A funny thing on the doing it for attention note, I think I did it more for attention as a child and as a result of that and me becoming aware of that it helped me to loathe myself. Because I know people like Ray will hate me and crush me, because I know then that I was just a whiny leech. Now I'm just an incompetent leech, better off avoiding as much human interaction as possible.
Still aggression is also attention, part of me would enjoy getting beaten the hell up for being a weak attention desiring slime as that is what I deserve, I might even hope I die as a result of it. I pity others who harm themselves but they have their own reasons, and in their world their reasons may be justified. To pass judgement on them so swiftly seems like a bit much.
~-~... And again, my specific outlines for what I dislike and why is, at least to some extent, ignored...
People are outraged that sparrow, someone who we expect to make outrageous claims about religion, is making outrageous claims about religion, but no one even bothers to look at what another member generalized about depression, suicide and self-harm. I'd consider the latter a bit more offensive. But maybe I'm just being a weak-minded, attention-whoring coward who should just kill himself anyway.
I've read your in depth opinions and I still dissent with them. I think depression happens for a reason and nearly everybody goes through a point of depression some time in their lives. True some are selfish about it but only because they fail to realize everyone else suffers, they themselves are still victim.
I even pity those who think nobody understands them, because they are probably right. Who knows that those people are trying to convey or have locked inside of themselves. People are social animals, that is one of the things that has made us so adaptable, so when we lack that part we fall apart. Some people feel like they are less understood others like they need attention so people can understand.
Many are aware that this causes trouble for others so they don't even let people know they are depressed, many still let others know but are hopelessly stuck trying to get help and not be a burden. I've seen reactions elsewhere when people nonchalantly brush off suicide threats because they are tired of it.
I only stand against these states of apathy and low tolerance to people who do it for whatever reason. The longer you are in depression the less control you have over it, it is like a downward spiral. Some can't pull themselves out of it, others like myself have rationalized reasons to be depressed and only can find peace our own ways, some try to get help from friends and family and are seen as pestilence.
I get where you're coming from, but they're two completely different things.
Ray was expressing an opinion about the topic of the thread, whether or not people agreed or were angered by the opinion is neither here nor there.
Sparrow was singling people out who are/he thinks are Christians and being horrible to them primarily because they're religious.
Maybe, if the thread was actually about Religion, people being angered by him wouldn't be so common - but the fact that nobody even mentioned God or Christianity until he singled Sevi out about it?
That's the difference.
Also, Kakashi, I wouldn't regret making this thread. It had and has potential to bring about valuable discussion.
I agree with Pyro, I said what I said to Sparrow because no one mentioned religion at all until Sparrow decided to score a cheap point on someone. Everyone else's shared viewpoints have been presented in a more or less civil manner. You do not use another person's suffering to score a meaningless edge in an argument.
Sparrow goes into EVERY thread and brings up religion. Even threads in spam. I mean I know you like him or whatever but everything ray said was totally uninformed and overall insulting to myself and everyone I know who faces depression. Sparrow and ray were both giving opinions. One was expected and off-topic, sure, but the other was offensive and ignorant.
I'd say the difference is that Ray didn't do it as an attack, whatever your opinion of his own opinion. I happen to disagree with his viewpoint but he didn't come out of nowhere and try to score an edge over you or anyone else from his very entrance into the thread.
Hey, that's your opinion. Just because Sparrow is horrible all the time and we expect it doesn't make it any more offensive than what Ray said. I'd also just like to state that the primary implication of what Ray said was Teenage drama queens who self harm and then broadcast it to the world - that's what he meant (Correct me if I'm wrong, Ray). Not that every single person in the entire world is stupid/idiotic/annoying because they're depressed. Sure, he may not have self harmed himself, and on that basis, maybe he doesn't understand the mentality that people that do have - but either way you look at it - It's an opinion. Sure, it's an opinion you don't agree with, or think is wrong, but that's down to you and your feelings/beliefs.
Sparrow on the other hand is just rude and cruel, and picks on people for no apparent reason, other than to be a total cock. At least Ray's posts in this thread were directly related to the topic. Sparrow's weren't, and whether they were expected or not doesn't matter - they were still horrible and uncalled for, and had absolutely no reason to post other than to pick on people.
Look, I have made my position very clear. I am neither uncaring or lacking compassion, and, if I am, I am still more right than anyone who is an enabler of people who harm themselves. You can think what you want, I really stopped caring a few days ago, and it just bothers me to see you stick up for the local jerk-off just to emphasize your bigotry and hate of me. Either way, do whatever you're going to do, but don't just run your mouth like so many other people.
Still make not that even if you don't practice tough love with people who harm themselves you aren't an enabler. Every situation is different and depending on the person, and why they are depressed, and why they harm themselves. I'd go to tough love as a last resort just because out of my own experience it didn't do any good.
I'd like to point out that nobody here has bad intentions, not even Sparrow. People just have different methods of doing things based on their own experience. Still applying that to others can be risky, often the best bet is to do things your own way.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure some people have bad intentions. Such as the person who personally attacked someone for self harming and being depressed
...No, pretty sure Sparrow as just flat out insulting religion, Sevi, and being a ****tard in general just because he gets a kick out of it...
Anyway, yes, I agree that "No tough love =/= Enabler", and I didn't say that. I just said, out of the two, I'd rather try and kick the depressed person into reality (which is generally better than their little black cloud world, as I've experienced first hand), than Encourage them...
Since I'm being 'ignored' (or so I'm told), someone tell Kakashi to drop it. He's older than I am (I think) and acting like a damned 12 year old does when he doesn't get his way or gets his feewing huwt ;(... It's really killing the seriousness of the topic he created.
To be fair Ray, your initial comments were pretty heavy handed. But also Kak, you did kind of flip out early on, while somewhat justifiably you took it too personally.
Suicide and self harm isn't intended to be selfish, it is a means of punishment or ending suffering. This may seem selfish to others but it is again circumstantial. We can look at it then objectively or emotionally. A dilemma I face when I get thoughts of doing myself in is objective. I based on ranking or assessment evaluate my life to be productive enough to continue, I also rule in resource consumption. If I can't ultimately output enough successful work to balance out what I consume then I am in my own eyes and only to myself a leech. Emotionally I could consider that friends and family might be sad for awhile but I have been introverted and slowly falling from all their understanding so it would be the greatest good for me to die considering the lack of my projected production.
Still I'm too weak to preform the deed, and to some degree either way I go it would be selfish. If I life I selfishly consume knowing I will never amount to anything. If I die I selfishly leave the sadness of a few and waste the resources I have consumed this far into my life. I ultimately lie to myself and falsely give myself hope that I can fulfill my dutiful ambitions or distract myself with worldly things. Because of this I am selfish, and that is why I loathe myself.
By this personal account I hope you can see how backwards and difficult it can get. Saying generalized things might cause people to adapt them on themselves when neither side knows the whole story and even when both sides do it could be too late because of a sour start.
Look, while bashing yourself repeatedly openly is a great way to make yourself feel better... I'll let that sink in for a bit...
You should probably decide to cheer up (if you can just decide that, then that'd be great) sometime in the near future. If there's some underlying issue that needs dealing with (be it just low-self confidence in general or something else), that too needs to be helped along at some point. I don't know you well enough for one-on-one chats as of now, but really... I am the first one to call out people who are generally useless human beings (there are plenty of them) but I've yet to see you make yourself useless.
Also, yes, my comments were bit heavier, but they are no less true. The only thing I say you are flat out wrong about is self-harm being 'circumstantial' in the way of selfishness. It is always selfish because you want to relieve the pain over what others might want of you. Dying is easy, living is hard. By not harming yourself, you choose to acknowledge the wishes of those that care, love, etc you, by choosing to harm yourself, you rebuke them and find a sort of solace among the pain.
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