Scotland should never have joined the Union.

Discussion in 'Historian's House' started by Thy Fearful Symmetry, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. Thy Fearful Symmetry

    Thy Fearful Symmetry New Member

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    For centuries, the people of Scotland have fought and died to keep their country free. I contend that the Act of Union of 1707 was a betrayal, making their sacrifice pointless.

    The relationship between England and Scotland had been poor throughout the 1600s. During the 1650s the Scots had been subject to the loathsome Cromwell, and mutual mistrust continued to fester through the reigns of Charles II and James VII. The divide between the nations was widened even further after the massacre at Glencoe, and by the time the betrayer Queen Anne came to power, Scotland was fighting harder than ever to be free of the English yolk.

    The concept of a 'united kingdom' had been around for decades, having first been proposed in 1606, and each time it was mentioned it led to trouble, if not open battle. The English argued that any benefits would be felt most by Scotland. The Scots, however, feared being annexed, becoming just another region of the English kingdom, as had happened to Wales and as the English were attempting to do to Ireland.

    What switched the idea of a united kingdom from a theory to one which the English actively pursued was the war with France: Louis XIV recognised the Catholic James VII as the rightful heir to both crowns of England and Scotland. Highlanders in particular also recognised this claim on Scotland's crown, and this was something the English could not countenance. It is one of the interesting 'what ifs' of history that should James VIII have landed in Scotland in 1702, he may have been accepted as the rightful monarch and the whole history of the nation would have been completely different. As it was, James had the same sense of timing as his father, and did nothing. Anne was imposed on the Scots instead, and the Act of Union was the inevitable result. Henceforth the Jacobite cause would become entwined with Scottish nationalism.

    Political skulduggery played a big part in the Union being finalised. In a practically empty Scottish parliament a vote was taken on who the commissioners should be to negotiate the union proposal. By July 1706 terms were finalised. There terms met with popular protest, but by then the deal had been done. Scotland had effectively voted out of existence its right to be accepted as an independent nation. The Scottish Parliament was dissolved on April 28, 1707. By the terms of the Act, England and Scotland had become, in effect, one country. Scots were granted 45 seats in the House of Commons, and 16 peers in the House of Lords, but this was not an accurate reflection of the population difference between the two counties; it was merely a sop, and was rightly seen as such by the Scottish people. They had allowed the English to use the old battlefield tactic of divide and conquer. The Scottish nobility found it financially advantageous to accept union (and were, bluntly, bribed to do so). The majority of Scots never had a say on the matter.

    Yet, over 300 years later, Scotland may finally have an opportunity to rectify the betrayals of the past. The Scottish National Party has promised a referendum in which voters will be asked whether they agree or disagree "that the Scottish government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of a United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state". Perhaps we will have our revenge on Queen Anne after all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
  2. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    I always wanted to see scotland independent.
    <3 scotch
     
  3. darkfox

    darkfox New Member

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    While I understand and empathise with independance, the Scottish people need to start living in the present. I hope that the referendum shows what today's Scot's feel about being part of the UK and that they are allowed to act according to that referendum. That being said, it's been 300 years. Time to get over old pains, the country will never survive if you constantly live in the past like that.

    Learn from those trials and betrayls and move on already. One reason why Scottish people leave Scotland is because they can't deal with the constant and neverending negativity. It's always about Caloden, or Prince Charlie or Queen Anne. Dude. These people are ALL dead and buried. Let their wars be dead with them. Be independant for independance sake, not to "right" some "wrong" from three centuries ago.

    I get it. Rough history. Murder. Rape. Betrayl. Conquered. Liberated. Conquered again. Liberated again. I know it wasn't an easy road, but good God man. Just learn from it and move on. This living in the past crap doesn't help anyone and only festers in the hearts of your people. Believe me, the Brits don't care if you're little feelings are hurt by something that happened before our grand-parents were even born. The only people Scots are hurting with rhetoric about the past is themselves and frankly, it's holding the whole country of Scotland back. Get over it and be strong. Quit whining and prove to those damn Brits that you're better than they are.
     
  4. Thy Fearful Symmetry

    Thy Fearful Symmetry New Member

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    It's going to happen sooner or later.:D Then, amongst other things, we'll be able to decide where we send our troops, rather than being subject to the whims of the various Imperialist lapdogs that have thus far resided in Westminster.
     
  5. Thy Fearful Symmetry

    Thy Fearful Symmetry New Member

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    You've rather missed the point of having discussions like this, darkfox. It's to explore possibilities. To exchange ideas and opinions. If we all sat around all day thinking
    'isn't everything great?', there'd be no point having threads like these: we could all just reside in Spam, pretending to be superheroes and talking nonsense to each other.
     
  6. darkfox

    darkfox New Member

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    I don't think I missed the point at all. This is a discussion and not a soapbox. There can be opposing points of views, in fact that's the very definition of a discussion. Just because you don't like what I said doesn't mean I've missed anything, or that I'm wrong.

    Scotland, from what I understand, didn't have much of a choice when they decided to join the union. Yet they continue to bitch and moan about it 300 years later. This isn't the first referendum about independance either. While I'd love for everyone to live "free", it all depends on your definition of freedom. Scotland will always be at the whim of any other country that can financially or militarily convince them to act as they see fit. Rule of the strong.

    It's not a "everything is great" debate. It's about living in the now and your arguments prove that at least one Scot isn't. You're talking about revenge for a 300 year old gripe. Get over it. You're what? In your 20's? If you were 320, you'd have a reason for revenge. But at this point it's just rhetoric to get everyone rilled up and angry.

    As I said, independance to feel free is fine. Independance to get payback because Queen Mary gave away your country is just scapegoating and stirring the pot.
     
  7. Thy Fearful Symmetry

    Thy Fearful Symmetry New Member

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    Coming from you, in particular, this is unutterably amusing. The Queen Anne reference was merely flowery language; the debate goes deeper, which you should be smart enough to comprehend. And seeing as no English members of the forum have jumped in to vent their wrath, it seems the only person getting riled is you. Try at least to be rational, and stick vaguely to the topic of the thread you're looking at, rather than ranting whenever an opinion doesn't coincide with your worldview.

    And no, I'm not in my 20s.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
  8. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    If Scotland wants to go it alone so be it. It would be disappointing given our shared history but it's not the end of the world stuff. I'm sure we'll be able to drag it out for a few decades (by which time we'll have drained the North Sea of Oil) although you can have your toxic banks and Gordon Brown back now :D
     
  9. darkfox

    darkfox New Member

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    Huh. Amazing how everyone else can have a point of view except the extremist and their point of view is seen as anger. I really couldn't care less about Scottish "freedom". I've heard that war cry many a time and at this point it's just sad frankly. Every decade or two the cry goes out for independance, or freedom from the yoke of Brittish control...yadda yadda. Old news recycled to pass on archaic rhetoric to the kiddies. Yay!

    I certainly am not claiming that I don't stir the pot. I'm just asking you and the Scottish people to rise above my short comings and deal with TODAY's issues and not issues from 300 years ago. If it's that big a slap in the face to your country, you should have gotten on board with the IRA back in the 60's. Course, that would have involved banding together and Scotland is still so Clan oriented that it's nearly impossible to get them all to agree on anything except that the Brits suck.
     
  10. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    lol It's by no means certain that the SNP would win a referendum for an independent Scotland or if it did it would likely be a marginal majority win leaving a divided nation.
     
  11. Thy Fearful Symmetry

    Thy Fearful Symmetry New Member

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    I think the oil's all but gone. And it looks like Brown will be making his way towards the border sooner than he'd hoped.:p




    So why post in this thread? What was the point?
     
  12. darkfox

    darkfox New Member

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    I'm of Scottish descent and was interested in where you were going with it. I was sorely disappointed of course and thusly decided to share my point of view. Last time I checked, I'm entitled to an opinion. Even under the bootheel of the monarchy. If you don't want people's opinions to interrupt your perch on the soapbox you should really just write a blog and turn the comments off. Shocking though I'm sure it is, the world doesn't always agree with your view of it.

    Heathen.
     
  13. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Excellent, as soon as he's across we close the border ;)

    Another real positive is that we wouldn't have to accept Scottish 'toy' banknotes any more.

    A negative would be that we'd have to drink Jamieson's Irish whisky instead :eek:
     
  14. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    Yeah i bet it's because of you damn brits that i've never seen a golden label johnny walker ;)
    No seriously, if scotland loses it's oil, i'm sure they'd be able to live comfortable lives solely by exporting whiskey. >.>
     
  15. Thy Fearful Symmetry

    Thy Fearful Symmetry New Member

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    We didn't ask for this House to be set up just so it could be filled with spam. If you have nothing relevant to add to a topic, say nothing.

    I can live with that. As long as you keep Price and Andre I'll be happy enough.:p


    Smaller countries than Scotland are able to survive on their own. There would obviously be a period of economic adjustment, but after that I think we'd do just fine. And judging by the amount of talkshows filled with English people wanting English independence, I don't think it would cause too big a fuss.:)
     
  16. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    I don't drink blended whiskies, you can have the lot :p

    The whisky industry is important and the best thing to come out of Scotland

    Okay ~ we'll block all your airwaves with Andre singing 'Insania' on a permanent loop and keep Price in storage for use as a barrage balloon should the need arise.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
  17. PaganSoul

    PaganSoul Dull blade = choppy job

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    Getting 'over it' today regarding the ills of yesterday is easier said than done.
    It's like America's horrific history of slavery AND their annihilation of the Native Americans. Because there are still PROFOUND consequences today from those actions taken yesterday, there are still old wounds festering.
    Yes, it would be wonderful if we could all sing, arms linked, around a bonfire while roasing marshmallows, but I'm sure descendents from the Highland Clearances would be hard pressed to join in the merryment.

    Truth of the matter is, Scotland STILL suffers the consequences of decisions made eons ago.
    Case in point: a language that's nearly extinct because it was made illegal to speak it. Only now are Highlanders making DAMN sure to teach it in their schools, trying desperately to save the ancient Gaelic language of their ancestors.
    Did you know that Christmas, TO THIS DAY is STILL illegal to practice?
    Most Scots don't even know this.
    It was made illegal over 400 years ago because the celebration of it was Pagan, and the Christian/Catholics weren't having any of that.

    With England, it's always been about ABSOLUTE control.

    Bloody 'ell, they owned Hong Kong until about 3 years ago--HONG KONG!!

    Now, I know many will say, 'well, if a country can strong arm land away from settlers, perhaps the heathens didn't deserve it in the first stinkin' place'...

    Tell that to the thousands burned in their homes, of ENTIRE clans snuffed...

    A Scotsman getting heated and passionate about his country shouldn't be scoffed at as if he passed gas and has offended a room of aristrocrats.

    He should be admired for his patriotism!
     
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  18. PaganSoul

    PaganSoul Dull blade = choppy job

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    Bloody 'ell, if tourists spend anywhere NEAR what I spend, when in Scotland, that ALONE will enable your country to stand on it's own.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
  19. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Unfortunately inaccurate on most counts Pagan. Britain ceded control of Hong Kong in 1997 (incidentally it was only the New Territories lease which had expired not Hong Kong Island). If Scots wish to speak Gaelic there's nothing stopping them and hasn't been for centuries although Scottish culture was certainly oppressed following their ill-conceived attack on England which led to their defeat. Scotland has a disproportionate representation at Westminster too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
  20. PaganSoul

    PaganSoul Dull blade = choppy job

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    I could argue that...*holds up picture of Gerard Butler*

    I think it all depends upon which side of the border one sits.