Sam and the Ring

Discussion in 'Books' started by Mac, Oct 7, 2003.

  1. Mac

    Mac New Member

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    Here is a question I have concerning the One Ring. I have read the trilogy 7 or 8 times and it never occured to me before. Why, when Sam put the Ring on to escape the Orcs (right after the encounter with Shelob :eek: ) did he NOT attract the immediate and direct attention of Sauron? When Frodo put the Ring on at Mount Doom, Sauron was immediately aware of him. But not so with Sam. I think the text says that Sam was aware that Sauron was searching for the Ring, but it's very different from when Frodo puts it on. The attention of Sauron is turned to Frodo as soon as he puts it on his finger.

    Here's my theory, though I'm not successful in convincing myself ;) It's a difference in motive. When Frodo puts the Ring on at Mount Doom, he is exerting power over Gollum as well as claiming the Ring for himself. When Sam puts it on, he does so to hide from the Orcs. He has no motive other than self-preservation, tied of course to the noble goal of destroying the Ring.

    As I said, though, I'm not convinced. Remember when Frodo, Sam and Gollum approached the cross-roads and the army issued from Mordor? The head Ring-Wraith was in the lead, and he stopped, sensing something...the Ring was near and it was calling out to evil. I find it improbable (IF fantasy is probable ;) ) that "activation" of the Ring wouldn't be like lights and sirens to Sauron.

    Any thoughts?
    Mac
     
  2. mithrandir

    mithrandir Gentleman Scholar

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    An interesting question. I would guess that at least in part it has to do with Frodo's first encounter with the Nazgul. Frodo's wound from that encounter weighs on him. Remember, the effect would have been (if not for Elrond's help) that Frodo would have been a wraith himself making him that much closer to the "dark side."

    Also, the ring itself by this time has been working at Frodo for quite a while. Whereas Sam is thus far untouched and uncorrupted by it. So perhaps he isn't as easily spied on while the ring is on.

    It's interesting that Sauron can sense the ring, but not really where it is. Perhaps because he is still weaker and not able to assume a physical form puts limitations on him as well.

    An interesting question. Have to noodle it a bit more.
     
  3. Mac

    Mac New Member

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    I agree that Frodo was much more under the sway of the Ring than Sam, and also that his wound from the Nazgul on Weathertop was what caused him to desire to put on the Ring at the cross-roads. I think, however, that it was not Frodo that the Nazgul sensed there, but the Ring itself.

    Mac
     
  4. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    This was/is my view on it. I had always figured since it takes time for the ring to grow on one (not immediate corruption), then perhaps Sam didn't not have a strong enough connection to the ring yet for Sauron to notice. But I might be very well wrong, this is just my theory.
     
  5. mithrandir

    mithrandir Gentleman Scholar

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    Well, if two wizards can agree on it, how can it possibly be wrong?:D
     
  6. Strider

    Strider Eccentric

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    Yah, thats the first thing that came to my mind. As time went on Frodo's mind became weaker, which was quite obvious, Sam has a very uncorrupted mind and a very sturdy will. He could probably resist the ring even better than Frodo could have at first.
     
  7. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    I've pondered this often myself. I came up with theories much like the ones above. There's not really another way to explain it.
     
  8. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    I thought that is said in the text that Sauron was too wrapped up in his dealings with Gondor to notice Sam, and technically Sam was not inside of Mordor when he put it on wich made him "distant".

    When Frodo put it on he was right under Saurons nose so he instantly knew it.

    Not saying it's right I just thought that the text stated something similar to this.
     
  9. Mac

    Mac New Member

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    Well I agree that Sauron's attention was elsewhere. Gandalf, Aragorn and a Halfling (among others) were knock, knock, knocking on his front door. But here's where I depart from y'all. I think it was the RING itself that attracted Sauron's attention, NOT the wearer of the Ring. I think Sauron felt the Ring close at hand (pun intended) but suspected that the Halfling at the front gate was likely the bearer.

    I also (respectfully) disagree with point two. Cirith Ungol, while not as close to Barad-dur as Orodruin, was certainly within Sauron's realm.

    This brings me back to my original point, the intent of the wearer when the Ring is put on. And it still leaves me unsatisfied :mad: ;)
     
  10. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    I agree it was in Saurons realm, but I'm certain that it states in the text that it is not a part of Mordor.

    I agree that he is certainly sensing the ring and not the ring bearer.
     
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Personally, I think Sauron sensed the Ring on Frodo's finger only once, and that was when he put it on in the cracks of Doom, in Saurons backyard, basically. Indeed, Sam stayed unnoticed for quite some time, strange enough, but he didn't claim the Ring to be his own, maybe that has something to do with it. (Frodo did, ultimately). The only time Sauron came near to detection of Frodo, Gandalf forced Frodo to take off the Ring. That was at Amon Hen, as I recall, when he got a taste of its power. What's more, i can remembering Sam saying to himselve that if he shood use the ring in Mordor the quest would cerainly fail, meaning that Cirith Ungol was safe outside Mordor, to his vision.
     
  12. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    You are all mistaken except for Turin. It plainly says that sam was not detected because he was not in mordor, and when he enters mordor he tells himself he cannot use it again because he knows he will be immediately detected!
     
  13. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    i think i wil have to agree with EBM and turin, in the text it said that sauron's eye was gazing in different directions at the time that sam put on the ring, i just got my book out and looked at it.
     
  14. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    Thank you. Sam did not entrer mordor until he passed between those two statues, that barred the way, remember how he had to use the glass to get through?
     
  15. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    yes i remember you are right.
     
  16. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    But wasn't Gandalf convinced that using the Ring would (or could) draw the attention of the Eye? Or is that just a misconception of myself?
     
  17. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    It depends alot on how the ring was used. Even if way over on the shire, frodo had claimed the ring, sauron would have known. But just slipping it on for a silly reason, he won't know. Now the ringwraiths on the other hand are more drawn to te ring in use.
     
  18. Mac

    Mac New Member

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    Gandalf was not at Amon Hen with Frodo. As far as the Company knew at that point, Gandalf was dead.

    Can you give a page reference on this please?
     
  19. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Sure he did, Mac. I did some reading and this interesting piece I found:

    "And suddenly, he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It gleancedupon Tol Brandir - he threw himself to the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.
    He heard himself crying: Never, never! or was it Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!"
    (Quote from FoTR)

    Later Gandalf tells that he was that other power, but where and to whom, I don't remember. He was in his "dead" fase at that moment.

    But this is interesting in this discussion; Sauron detected Frodo before, only after using its Power. Sam did not take a look at Barad-Dûr, I believe.

    the citation Elvenblademaster is referring to is:
    "He'd spot me and cow me, before I could so much shout out . He'd spot me pretty quick, if I put the Ring on now, in Mordor."
    (RoTK, Sam is near the tower of Cirith Ungol)

    This, he concludes most likely from putting the ring on for the second time, three pages earlier:

    "Immediately he felt of its weight, and felt afresh, but now more strong and urgent than ever, the malice or the Eye of Mordor, searching, trying to pierce the shadows that it had made for its own defence, but which now hindered it in its unquiet and doubt"
    (RoTK)
     
  20. Mac

    Mac New Member

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    Thanks, Turambar. I don't have the books here at work with me, and your speedy reply has quieted my restless mind ;). This does make it plain that they were outside Mordor, a fact that I disputed earlier on in this thread. I stand corrected.

    I also evidently glossed over the statement from Gandalf about "communicating" with Frodo. I must go back and re-read those sections.

    ******************
    Mac