Religius freedom or minority "dictatorship"?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Nov 16, 2009.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    This has been taking some proportions lately,there is some decision or law or whatever in the European Union that calls for religious symbols and most specifically the cross,icons etc. to be taken down from classrooms,public services and universities and I think it also extends to stopping the prayer at schools.From what I heard on TV all that is so that we don't make the minorities(that is mostly immigrants in most of the European Union countries)feel bad and because everyone has the right to believe wherever he/she wants.

    I do agree that everyone has the right to believe wherever he/she wants,but displeasing the many to please the few??

    Would someone even dare to try and impose a law for muslim countries to take down the Quran verses from the walls,to stop praying during the day and to forbid them from teaching children of other religions,religious classes?
     
  2. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

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    Im going to have fun with this.


    Im not too sure what your referring to but i think it might be the European court of human rights decision to ban the crucifix in government-run schools in italy, and by doing so setting a precedent for the rest of the EU
    You are completely wrong about the intentions of the EU. The EU is a secular body and fundamentally recognises a clear separation between church and state. Therefore it cannot and should not have any link with any religious symbols.


    This is the EU. do not compare us to muslim countries.
     
  3. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    This trend has been happening for decades.

    In the UK every primary school used to have religious assemblies (Christian) with those of other faiths having the option to opt out. This has gradually changed to non-secular assemblies so that minorities are not 'upset' by the majority Christians. Similarly religious education has broadened (which isn't a bad thing). We've now reached the point that few primary schools even now hold an annual nativity play for fear of upsetting other religions. Sad in my view, even though I'm not religious, that tradition is thrown out of the window like this.

    As for the display of wider religious symbols where do you stop? The displaying or absence of the symbols are equally offensive to somebody....
     
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Thanx it's about what happened in Italy that I'm talking about because there was a discussion in the news that this could happen here too and in other countries of the European Union.

    Yes but the decision made by the European Union are supposed(at least in theory)to be followed by all members of it.So we can't have laws and decisions that are against a country's morals or ethics...(may Ireland lead the way? :p)

    You're just lucky we don't have any active muslim members here.....
     
  5. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

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    The decision was not 'made' by the european union. It was decided by the european court of human rights.
    They found that religious symbols in schools went against the European Convention on Human Rights. They were right in their decision.
    Your country, greece i presume, knew exactly what they were getting themselves into when they joined the EU. If you have any qualms about it, blame your government.

    I dont know much about muslim countries except that they do not regard human rights as importantly as the EU.

    Its absolutley nothing against muslims or people who live in those countries.
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I blame my governments(yes plural)for a lot of things and if this "trend" gets here too it will probably infuriate a lot of people.There was an interesting title about a reportage on a TV channel today "Christians of Europe unite!".I think this matter could really raise disputes all over Europe if imposed.We can't step back in almost every demand of the minorities in order to please them.Yes we do want them to feel good,but in the end...this is Europe,they came here.Besides in Saudi Arabia they don't even allow any churches to be open or any other religious ceremonies outside the houses to take place.Then you have Iran,the other Gulf War countries and perhaps Pakistan too more to the East?

    Although your comment above did sound racist(don't compare us with the muslim word)you are right in your last comment.Many of the muslim countries don't show musch tolerance on other people's religions but DEMAND more tolerance and rights for the muslims in other countries.
     
  7. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

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    Foin, I dont think your quite grasping the concept that the EU is completely secular. This has nothing to do with minorities. It has to do with respecting and following the laws we wrote.

    If you want to talk about a minorities rights within a democracy, we can.

    If you perceived my comment as racist, it was very much unintended and i apologise. Comparing the EU to the Muslim world doesn't make any sense.
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I'm not a muslim to be offended but a muslim COULD have been offended by such a comment.Because many of them don't consider the muslim world as one which denies basic rights to women and/or religious freedom to people from other religions who live in muslim countries.Of course I'm not talking about the entire muslim world,but a part of it.

    Secularity is one thing,taking down religious items like crosses and icons from schools,public services and buildings and universities,excluding the religious class from children at school and prayer is something that worries me.And all that is done in the name of that..."secularity" and rights of the minorities :S
     
  9. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

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    A secular body means exactly that foin. It cannot endorse or fund an establishment that promotes a certain religion. Im sorry but you need to research this more if your going to debate about it.
     
  10. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I'm here to see all you people's opinion on this subject and to discuss if that would be something you find good or bad and you would be pro or against it if it happened/happens in your country.
     
  11. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

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    James Madison once wrote "It is of great importance in a republic, not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part. Different interests necessarily exist in different classes of citizens. If a majority be united by common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure."
    When this was written it is believed he was alluding to slavery.

    Sometimes power of the majority is extremely dangerous and therefore it is absolutely imperative that governments are completely secular and non discriminatory. To ensure this, we have created charters and conventions which ultimately prevent majority suppression.

    So to answer your question, I completely agree with the decision of the European Court of Human Rights and await for all religious symbols to be torn from all public buildings, schools and universities.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    So should a traditionally and happy to be,Christian country like Italy,France,Spain or Greece take down religious symbols for which they have fought for(to defend their faith)in many and various wars because a minority of people who believe in other religions(mostly islam in this case)have migrated legally or illegally to these countries and demand to say they are "offended"(in the cases that immigrants do say they are offended)by this country's religious symbols?Do they have the right to demand that?Is it logical to demand that?

    When you are the "guest" or you choose to live in a country much more different than yours and become part of it you have to respect it's history,people and that nation's beliefs.Right?
     
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Teehee!

    This needs some background. The motion was entered by the Italians. Now, there's a lot of funny stuff going on in Italy - and I am quite sure this all is to distract from Silvios many problems; it causes some upheave outside his personal environment for a change. It won't make it either - Kaczyński has made this pretty clear.

    Well - yes and no. There's three choices;

    - There is NO religion in the classroom;
    - Every school is allowed to embrace a religion of its own choice, though every school is equally funded.
    - You live in a theocracy.

    I would say that the third option is the least favourable. And, since I am a liberal, the first doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

    See, appart from being dictatorships in most of the cases, they are theocracies. That's the difference. There's only one country where I would be able to do this, far as I am aware; Indonesia.
     
  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Lol naughty Silvio!Almost every week there's something on TV about his scandals with sexy women.
     
  15. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

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    firstly, your not suggesting that this Kaczynski has the power to overrule the european court of human rights. just to be clear, you were still referring to berlosconi.

    And secondly, your 'liberal' stance on religion in schools is quite flawed as it would indicate that parents would have the ability to enroll their kids in any public school. Unfortunately this is not the case. In public schools, places are given to those who live the closest to the school in order to insure that all children have a place, it is also a way of tackling discrimination.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2009
  16. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Interesting... European Court of Human Rights.

    I didn't know the issue rested with this court (sorry for not reading the entire thread thus far).

    So, basically, the individual right of a person is weighed against the individual right of a school.... I think this means a reasonable choice must be offered to the person in question, but barring religious symbols from school on beforehand might well be prevented by exactly the same basic human right; that of freedom of religion.

    Well, The Netherlands provide in that choice. And that freedom of choice is constitutional, so no problems there. Besides, The Netherlands is sufficiently populated for schools to be just about anywhere. This might be a very interesting outcome of the trial at hand...

    Please also note that the judgements of the European Court of Human Rights aren't strictly followed, not even by the Member States. Most constitutions of individual nations don't recognise the authority of this court, so there are probably ways to weasel from under it. Besides, there are no sanctions or consequences by this court, untill the European Parliament adopts legislation based on the judgements at hand.
     
  17. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Yup.Exactly.Isn't that bad?
     
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    There is nothing against the weighing of rights against each other. It's what the justice system is about.
     
  19. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

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    In all honesty I dont understand the argument of 'freedom of religion'. Surely if you understand that european governments are secular you must understand that all schools must remain neutral. I cant see how this can be debated.
     
  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    It's a slow "de-christianization" of society and each country in Europe.
     
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