Religions co-existing

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Dreamscape, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    That point is pretty valid...


    1970's ey? We can be pretty sure that Tito was still doing his thing in Yugoslavia at that time. I am pretty sure the coexistence between Islamic faith and the more or less totalitarian unity was a tense one. I am not entirely sure how the Yugoslavian situation compares to other societies, if ever it does. No doubt Izetbegovic found parallels elsewhere, but I am not entirely sure what the value of his conclusion is without more expansion on the argument.
     
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    One interesting thing about Bosnia is that during Yugoslavia and during the war and even in a big part now,the population had a more secular version of Islam.Alcohol and no beards were characteristics.However Izetbegovic,you wanted to create an independent Bosnia with muslims being the majority,allowed into the country up to 5000 or more mujahedin mostly from the East(the Arab world,Iran and Afghanistan).They brought ideas and more fanatic beliefs.

    What Izetbegovic says about Islam not being able to co-exist with other religions or non-muslim socities can be found in countries of the middle-east and Asia like Afghanistan,Pakistan.Saudi Arabia forbids other religions to be worshipped openly or to maintain a temple in Saudi Arabia,Qatar,UAE,Kuwait and Oman are also strictly muslim(although not like Saudi Arabia)and in most other countries with a majority or big muslim population there are clashes between Sunni Muslims and Christians or Sunni Muslims vs Shia Muslims....Buddhists etc.

    There is something in Sunni islam that makes many muslims fanatic in the sense that they think they should have the most rights in a country with a Sunni population.
     
  3. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Is it really the people or the people who lead the people? I would argue that its more the latter who encourage and direct the former so that the pressure and increase in trying to gain more rights raises the power of the latter group. Ergo its not a religious thing its a political and personal power game that uses religion as its primary weapon and means of advertising and spreading its influence.

    You can see this being a pattern for many strong religions in past and present where the religious argument was used to further the gaining of new lands of increased rights within those lands - just consider things like the Crusades in the past which show that Christianity was capable of being a violent and military focused religious tool.
     
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Enough with the Crusades.It has become a gum for everyone to chew.I say it's both the sheikhs and the imams and the people they lead in Sunni Muslim societies.Also,there's a huge difference between Islam and Christianity I will say most specifically Sunni Muslims,well many millions of them at least,revolve around the concept of "jihad",not mercy.They are proud for the "eye for an eye" that exists in muslim ideology and of expansive war to "conquer the infidels".Of course many millions of muslims are more peaceful and ignore these calls for either war against infidels or revenge etc.

    But....there are enough jihadis ready to either accept or reject a muslim ideology according to how it suits them.They mostly choose to listen to the imams and sheikhs who preach jihad and war and evil.
     
  5. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    Do you think Milosevic was any better? Let's not even go into what we think about him... I can tell you that I met several serbians who hated the dude! One of them had a last name Milosevic :D He was a refugee in Germany...

    as far as Muslims co-existing with other ppl goes.. I can tell from experience. I'd been working with two muslims so far. First was a dude from Kashmir. Really friendly dude, who helped me a lot. Other ppl used to say that he's the most social dude they've ever seen. Another one was a female form Indonesia. Also the friendliest person ever (quite sexy as well :D)!!!

    I agree there are lots of fanatics among muslims. But generalization is stupid. Otherwise judging on some members of TFF I could say christians are fanatics as well...
     
  6. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Foin the Crusades get used lots because they are still widely talked about, heck its hard not to hear about them with the number of films and media attention upon them (heck in the UK we also have Robin Hood which is attached to the Crusades). The thing is I'm not well versed enough in history to have other specific examples of where Christianity was a primary argument for war however I'm very certain that there are multiple other situations where it is used (heck wasn't Christianity used as a major reason to take land from "primitive" peoples under the pretence of bringing them into the light of Christian understanding)

    I see the warlike Muslim element much like the warlike Christian. It's something I hope that will remove itself as the people advance, become more educated and as the world shifts and changes. There is, of course, a lot of resistance against this because change, especially big social change, is always met with heavy resistance.
     
  7. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    Exactly!
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    You don't have to tell me about the bad side of the Crusades,our empire was destroyed because of the Fourth Crusade.And even during the First Crusade the Westerners tried to take over Constantinople.

    But...everyone keeps using the Crusades when he wants to talk bad about Christians.There were of course all these bad crusaders were only going to the Middle-East for money and land but there were also many many Catholics who just did it out of honor and to help their Christian brethren.

    Western Christians have a very weird sense of serving faith you know with the Inquisition or the Teutonic Knights' campaigns against the Pagan Lithuanians.The 30 years war and the brutal destruction of the Cathars in Southwestern France.

    But the point is that Christianity does not encourage people to kill others.It teaches them to forgive and to help.To have mercy and to be peaceful.Islam on the other hand can create fanatics more easily because of all the "jihad" and "eye for an eye" stuff in the Quran and the sheikhs' preachings.

    And besides people have evolved we are in the 21st century and we see that Sunni muslims seem to live in the 9th century still.Cutting heads and shouting fanatic slogans.

    And remember that there are far more examples of muslim fanatics than Christian/Buddhist/Jewish or Taoist ones.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I think you're pulling a double standards in your argument there - you're arguing that Muslim beliefs make for a militant people whilst at the same time trying to deny that Christian groups were not similar in times past. It's not true of Christians today, indeed whilst the Bible and other religious texts can easily be used to justify/support military and violent actions such is not mainstream in the faith today and more violent groups are often very fringe (Westro Baptist Church).

    I see the Muslim situation as being very similar, yes there is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth in their religious texts and I bet you can find that same message within some Christian texts too.

    The thing is there are also many peaceful Muslims, if it was a religion focused purely upon violence and hate then it simply wouldn't have managed to integrate itself into many western cultures and nations as it has done. Indeed I'd argue that the military element is a phase that the religion is going through, with the hope that the more violent elements can be rooted out and removed and the religion itself focus more upon its peaceful content and focus.
     
  10. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Political cartoons are propaganda. No religion is pure or has innocence after all this time.

    Christianity was used to juxtapose religions and allow Europeans to discriminate in Africa, also heavily disillusioned missionaries corrupted education with euro-centric ideas and culture in Africa. Still Africans managed to adapt the religion to accept their culture.

    There were violent jihads of the sword in the north west of Africa, but also peaceful conversion along the Swahili coast and the creation of the Muriddya who believe in jihad of the soul.

    You could argue which religion is better or more peaceful, or the least harmful but then you are feeding into one of the largest reasons why religion will never co-exist, unfortunately.
     
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    No... I am pretty sure I didn't say anything about Milosevic. Let's keep the Balkan where it is, shall we?


    I am pretty sure that the militant Islam, the one refusing other authority and seeking confrontation is a pretty modern one. I'd say it has been building since 1850 or so (colonial times) and has expanded over time. It's not just the Sunni muslims; Iran has taken a very important position in revolutionary ideology in the 1970's for instance. One could say that this relatively new behaviour of the Muslim world is of our own making, a reaction to how the West has treated the Middle East, I have made this point before.

    All I would want to say is that it is very easy to point out the enemy. It is very hard to understand them. And in understanding them, I think it is we will find a solution. War mongering is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And living in Thessaloniki must be one of the worst places in the Western world to live with that prophecy....
     
  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I'd say even more modern that you said.I'd say about the 1960s or 1970s and after.But their barbaric methods are medieval.Wahabbism was already evident in Saudi Arabia for 100 years or so but in the rest of the world such fanaticism was not there until at least the 1960s or 1970s.

    Can you explain that part about Thessaloniki and prophecy 'cause I got confused as to which prophecy you're talking about,kinda lost you there.
     
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    The Lord's message was contrary to the jewish eye for any eye.Remember? Don't do to others what you wouldn't want others do to you.
    Forgive your enemies.Love your neighbor.

    Christianity encourages people to become more peaceful,more pious,more loving.To become better people.Of course some dozens of weird sects that have sprung out of Catholicism or Protestantism or completely on their own might contain messages completely different to Christianity as it was preached by the Apostoles and the first Christians.

    Islam however,encourages muslims to spread the faith by the sword,talks about muslims helping muslims first and foremost.Is in favor of "eye for an eye" ideologies and submit or perish.Even when a muslim converts to another religion islam says he should be killed.Weird punishments like amputations,floggings,death.

    And like our emperor Manuel Palaiologos had said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

    God is not pleased by blood – and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death..."
     
  14. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Was the Spanish Inquisition any less barbaric in some if its methods?
    Is the electrocution of condemned criminals any less barbaric today?

    In the end we can go in circles with this, but I think that you need to read more into the Muslim world itself beyond what is considered common understanding and beyond what is often portrayed in the media and by figure heads. It is only by understanding more fully that I think one can more appreciate how religions can be highly susceptible to personal twisting. Almost anyone can go through a major world religion and cherry pick quotations from key historical figures and scriptures in order to carry their own argument.

    One can find peaceful and warlike comments in the Bible - especially if you look to using older editions or different key source texts (which are shifted and changed as society itself changes - not every copy of the Bible is the same).


    The warlike nations that are currently undergoing strong military action are, I think, not a product of Muslim beliefs - heck consider that many are nations forged and then abandoned by western masters; often forced to use territorial boundaries that were not originally what were present before western invasion and intervention and this has continued right up to recent times. One can well understand the hostility that many of these people would feel and indeed its upon this hostility that many others can prey and use it to their own advance.
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    But the Lord Jesus Christ didn't encourage violence and hatred.The Spanish Inquisition did things different to Christianity.As for criminals,that's a punishment for heavy crimes.

    Islam actually encourages acts of violence and vengence.How do you explain that like I said and I INSIST on this,that most societies with a large muslim population have problems.Because muslims always demand respect from other religions,they always feel they should have more rights and they always act violently when some offends their beliefs.Plus there are millions upon millions of them who want to spread islam by force.Islamic insurgents in Nigeria,in Sudan,in Mali,in Libya,in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood against the Coptic Christians,in Palestine Hamas and other fanatic muslim organizations,in Lebanon the Sunni armed groups,in Syria the rebels,in Iraq all these Sunni armed groups for a decade now,in Pakistan and India and in Afghanistan...sunni fanatics,in Somalia as well,in Bosnia and Kosovo armed groups caused a lot of trouble and still cause in some cases,in Chechnya,in Dagestan,in Tajikistan,in Yemen.

    Eeeh...the examples are far too many.
     
  16. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    It's the self fulfilling one I mentioned earlier. Warmongering.

    And yes, Thessaloniki. It is separated by about 200 km of land mass from what is generally perceived as the Muslim world. Along with Sofia, it's probably closest without having water in between (Gibraltar, Palermo). If it's war you want, Thessaloniki is probably not the place to be...
     
  17. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    No I don't want war of course.But remember,my city was only liberated 100 years ago from the Turks.It was full of minarets.That might give you an idea that here and in other places this religious/ethnic intolerance that people in the west cannot possibly comprehend is a valid reality.We're not racists as a nation but we're also not ones who will blindly trust their former enemies and open the gates for them to re-enter unconditionally.