Religion dangerous?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Cascador, May 31, 2010.

  1. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I didn't want to start a thread about one particle occasion. There's been several occasions, so many things like war itself that points in this direction. But what made me start this thread is an article I read. It was in Dutch so I can only describe what it was about.

    A 12-year old girl, started a fire at a church to punish God back, as He did not want to save her sister in a traffic accident near Paris... Perreux to be exact. This wasn't her first attempt actually.

    But clearly the girl didn't understand what's right and wrong. She wanted revenge because she believed in God. Should she have been taught that God can't interfere in such events? Yeah, but again even if she knew, she would still have been asking why God can't interfere. If he's so powerful, then why can't he? That's what grief will cause. They will raise these question in you. And all the explanations you give why he can't interfere will just sound as excuses. No I'm not pointing fingers here solely to God, or Religion. It is her upbringing of course. But suppose she was raised as an atheist and didn't believe in God. Would she still have tried to burn that church down? I think not.
     
  2. AlphaAlex

    AlphaAlex Official Forum Nuisance

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    hmm. what I'd tell her I wont post here cos religious people will be offended.

    So I'll say this, maybe she has been brought up with the wrong impression of her god.
    I dated a a highly religious girl once and she took me along to church.. and the ... things... they ugh... nicely put... 'tell' you is unbelievable. It's like they say 'put all your eggs in one basket.. this one, cos it will save you from hell.'
    then they ask for money. Sorry but this is why I'm not religious. If I want to believe in something, I'll do it my way, not through some church out to scab money off people and tell you how to live your life. Isn't that in itself not god's plan? he gave us all free will didn't he?

    a young girl lost her sister, its tragic, but I blame her parents and her church for brainwashing her into thinking god will fix everything.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  3. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    True, maybe she has the wrong idea about God. That's what I mean with the wrong upbringing. However even if she had the right idea about God... In a way. Then still her strong emotions could have conflicted with what thinks is logic about God. Conflicted emotions do often conflict with your own logics. You'll make the wrong decisions. But then again that could be said about other things. I mean why did she blame God in particular? I don't know the details of the traffic accident, but if it was the drunk driver's fault, just to give an example. Would she have attempted to kill him? Or maybe not as she at least know that he's not all powerful and as a human makes mistakes. But God however is all powerful.
     
  4. AlphaAlex

    AlphaAlex Official Forum Nuisance

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    maybe she blames god because she had to believe in a greater power to save her sister.. then when her sister died, she lost faith?

    seems to happen a lot.

    She blames god because her prayers were not answered.


    in response to your topic question I say yes. Religion is dangerous.
    The girl in question was only 12. It's not fair on her to make her believe such things.
     
  5. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    Clearly the girl didn't know what's right and wrong- correct.

    But that is put very simple Anakin. Of course she wouldn't have burned down that church, she wouldn't have had a reason to let out her frustration on a building representing a religion.
    But maybe, if she's been brought up an atheist, she'd feel empty inside and helpless and lost.

    Being religious, she has someone to blame (God). Being athist, she has noone to blame except for maybe the driver, but then: Nothing.

    It's not religion that makes us who we are, it's our choices. If I chose to blame God, well, I blame him. And if I don't believe in him, I blame the tree that stood in the way.
    Or I choose to not blame anyone and just let it be (I chose that, actually).

    What you are talking about, Anakin and Alex, are the failings of worldly institutions like church and parents.
    Religion is something completely different: It's what you believe in your heart.

    Peu à peu:
    The girl believes in a God (religion)
    The sister died (event)
    Noone told the girl God doesn't intervene (institutions)
    The girl blames God (part religion part institution)
    The girl sets the church on fire (choice, event, but not religion)
    (And by the way, noone seems to have told the girl that the church building has nothing to do with the church itself, so the action was senseless, no matter how you turn it)

    So is religion dangerous?
    I say "no", it's not more dangerous than anything else in the world.
    Fanatism is dangerous, yes.
    Unquestioned belief systems are dangerous, yes.
    But "Religion", the thought in itself, is not in the least dangerous.
    What people make of it and chose to make of it, is what makes it nice or dangerous, depending on what you do and where you stand.
    Questiones?


    @AA: Remember that every church community is different, don't think that they are all the same and all hungry for money. Religion is what you believe, church is the people with whom you wanna share your beliefs.
     
  6. AlphaAlex

    AlphaAlex Official Forum Nuisance

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    I agree with you running, you are spot on there but for one thing, religion DOES change people, in a way it does make you who you are. I have seen it all too often.

    the girl was 12, she cant make her own decisions, like you said, she doesn't know right from wrong. Isn't that the whole point of religion? isnt that forced upon people? to believe whats right and whats wrong?

    she must have been brought up believing in god and lost her faith. It's a sad story.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  7. Ser Land

    Ser Land New Member

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    It is dangerous only in the fashion that it takes belief as empirical truth. You can believe in whatever you want, but if it can't be proved, if it's not a given, it can't be perceived as such.
     
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  8. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Yes I agree with you, Running Wolf. I shouldn't have generalized, by asking if Religion is dangerous. How you sum it up is indeed better rather than simplifying it. But still that raises the question if young children should believe in God in the first place? Religion doesn't make us who we are, it's our choices. I agree, but however these things we believe in do influence our choices. That is what I mean with emotional conflicts. So maybe we should ask the question that children should be told to believe in God? Children are easily influenced and they don't actually make the choice to believe in God, otherwise could you still call it a belief? You don't choose to believe in God. You just do, or am I wrong? A child doesn't have that much freedom to choose in these things. It's your uprising that influences your belief in God. And that influences your choices.
     
  9. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    yeah and I was too, brought up believing in a God. And I still knew that you don't set anything on fire. Especially with 12.
    12 year old kids actually are able to decide for themselves. I say that she needed to let out her frustration and grief.
    Maybe she would've killed the driver if she was atheist...

    See Jesus said a lot of things to do with "no violence" (setting a church on fire counts as violence where I live). She might believe in Jesus (I assume she was Christian?!) But believing in him and following his word are two completely different things.
    It's always the human that decides what to do with what you are being told.
     
  10. AlphaAlex

    AlphaAlex Official Forum Nuisance

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    12 year olds are 12 year olds. Don't forget that. Yes they can makes choices but they are still kids.

    she needed an outlet like you said. and I agree with anakin, being brought up to belive in something isnt quite right in my book. You need to be old enough to make your own choices. That's why there are laws.

    My dad is catholic and my mum is Protestant but they never forced a religion on me.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  11. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    Am I double posting? Prolly yes, sorry. Oh I'm no, thanks AA
    Honestly, I (personally, me, I as in who I am, I!) I would say wou are wrong about the bold part.
    I chose to believe.
    I was brought up catholic, figured out that the church told a whole lot of bullsh*t, turned kinda buddhist (with 12!), continued on atheist- and am back to christianity. (I'll let the explanation for the why out, it doesn't belong here)
    Anyways, so I chose, I consciously chose, to believe in a God.

    BUT of course kids don't get the choice. Well they sometimes do, but the chose after their parents. But that is how it always is.
    We don't get to choose in which culture we are born, in which country, if rich or poor. We just take the system around us as a given for our first years of life and try to adapt to it. We don't get to choose the society we live in.
    The question is, if it would make sense if parents would act atheist around their child (even though they're christian) and with that again make a choice for their kids, plus lie to them the whole time.
    What's better: Be yourself in everything that goes with it and later point to various other possibilities.
    Or act as someone else and still make a choice for your kid?
     
  12. AlphaAlex

    AlphaAlex Official Forum Nuisance

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    you know running, respect right there.

    my parents wanted me to decide for myself, and I decided to believe in something yes, but in my own way.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  13. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    well, umm thanks. For what though?
     
  14. AlphaAlex

    AlphaAlex Official Forum Nuisance

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    you pretty much summed up what I was saying, from a perspective I didn't think of.

    But a lot of kids are forced to believe in certain religions.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  15. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    that's why we discuss, isn't it? =)
     
  16. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Well of course you have choices as a child, but the are very limited imo. Because of your own mindset (all depends on the individual of course) and also because of the way you are brought up, influenced by school, parents, environment etc...
    So in that way you do have the choice to believe, however imo it's still limited.
     
  17. AlphaAlex

    AlphaAlex Official Forum Nuisance

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    parents and friends are the biggest influences. say your family is catholic, they send their kids to a catholic school.. what choice does the kid have?

    btw I just used that as an example, my dad is catholic and works at a catholic school.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  18. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Running Wolf, you know even as a child that you shouldn't put a church on fire. But maybe she just wanted to punish God by destroying something of his. We're not saying that she actually wanted to kill someone. She's not a murderer, but a vandal. And were you faced with the same situations when you were her age? Cause being in that mindset, being frustrated and conflicted with such emotions, makes you forget what's right and wrong. Or at least influence what you think is right and wrong. Again it depends on your mindset. Some children already become more mature at a young age. Depends on the individual and your upbringing.
     
  19. AlphaAlex

    AlphaAlex Official Forum Nuisance

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    hmmm.. true, it does depend on the child's mindset. Generally 12 year olds still chuck trantrums, they still over react. I'd hate to think what I'd feel if I lost a sister at 12.

    One of my mates lost a parent at 16 or 17 and took his dads car out for a joy ride and crashed it into a tree, now he was old enough to know that wasnt right, he could have run someone over but, emotions do things to people. He was and still is religious, but doesn't go to church anymore.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  20. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    I wasn't saying she wanted to kill someone, but you both agree with me, that emotion does things to people/kids.
    Believe systems may lead those emotions in one direction or another. So since she believed in God, she decided to light the church.
    If she'd believed in Buddha she might have set a temple on fire.
    If she thought capitalism was almighty, she might have lit a bank.
    And (as I was saying) if she was atheist, she might have done something else pretty stupid.


    But she could also have screamed at her parents, yelled at God, been angry at her sister for leaving her etc.
    This was not the fault of the religion, it was a kid trying to deal with grief. Everyone does it in a different way as AA pointed out.

    And thank god (harhar) I did not lose a sister or something close at the age of 12. I lost my grandpa with 4- too little to understand and a close buddy when I was 16, old enough to know that making something stupid doesn't help. I dealt with that okay I guess.