Re-instatement of the draft

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by curunir's bane, May 27, 2004.

  1. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Ok I can't remember the exact link to where i read this (i'll post it later), but it said that Donald Rumsfeld(sp?) seems to be considering re-instating the draft for the American military in Irag. This means it would be just like in vietnam where we would be once again forcing people to fight against their will. Oh yes and the best part is that you cannot flee to Canada this time. Well I can honestly say that I would not fight if i am forced to in this draft (if it is passed). This is not about me being afraid to die, it's about our freedom being taken away and this country one step closer to becoming a totalitarianistic government. What do you other American's and non-americans think about it?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2004
  2. Quercus

    Quercus The Very Last Entwife

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    Unfortunately, curunir’s bane, you are still too young to vote. But I think that those of us who are old enough to vote this November, should most certainly do so! We need to get rid of the current administration or things are only going to get worse!

    Bush and his money hungry cronies don’t care how many Americans have to die in this unnecessary and uncalled for war. All they care about is lining their pockets!

    They’ll tell you that the draft will make things more equal and will affect Americans from all walks of life. Easy enough to say when your daddy is a rich oil man/politician, who can pull some strings and get you into the National Guard so you don’t have to serve in Viet Nam, and then pull some more strings so you don’t get in trouble for going AWOL for a year!

    I have two draft-age sons, and I don’t have lots of money to pull any strings to keep them from getting drafted. I don’t even have enough money to help ship them off to another country where they may be able to escape the draft. It makes me sick to think that the money-hungry bas**rds in the White House can send my kids (or anyone else’s) off to war to be killed or maimed just to further their own interests!
     
  3. berennluthien

    berennluthien New Member

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    I would really appreciate it if you could post where you have read this. I have been hearing people at work talk about it, but no one has been able to actually show me where this is claim is coming from.

    It is a scary thought though. My husband is 23, and I can't imagine what I would do if he was drafted.
     
  4. Tamzen

    Tamzen New Member

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    Here's an article about it with the respective House and Senate bill numbers so you can find them.
    http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5834001&content_dir=ua_congressorg


    Here's another link.
    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/index.html

    Please note that these bills are in committee and *probably* won't make it out of there but there's of course no guarentees in politics.

    http://thomas.loc.gov/ lets you search on the bills by number for the latest status.

    H.R.163 - Latest Major Action: 2/3/2003 House committee/subcommittee
    actions. Status: Executive Comment Requested from DOD.

    S.89 - Latest Major Action: 1/7/2003 Referred to Senate committee. Status:
    Read twice and referred to the Committee on Armed Services.
     
  5. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    but it said that Donald Rumsfeld(sp?) seems to be considering re-instating the draft for the American military in Irag. This means it would be just like in vietnam where we would be once again forcing people to fight against their will. Oh yes and the best part is that you cannot flee to Canada this time.

    They’ll tell you that the draft will make things more equal and will affect Americans from all walks of life. Easy enough to say when your daddy is a rich oil man/politician,

    I dont know what you guys are talking about. The sponsors of those bills are Democrats! The Senator who wrote the Senate side bill is a major promoter of John Kerry's. Rummy doesnt want it. the army doesnt want it. Recruitment is over %110 towards goals. Watch CSPAN sometime, army deployment is hampered by cold war artillery doctrine. Personnel is overloaded.

    http://coolblue.typepad.com/the_cool_blue_blog/2004/05/democrats_push_.html

    I don’t even have enough money to help ship them off to another country where they may be able to escape the draft.

    Yeah, thanks for helping to protect the country. There isnt even a draft and people are looking for the exit.

    it's about our freedom being taken away and this country one step closer to becoming a totalitarianistic government.

    More than 3 generations of this country have faced the draft. Totalitarian (like Iraq used to be?) or not, this country would not be becoming anything more than what it has been in the past. But sometimes people who dont like the iraq war are silly. You guys act like the US shoots down war protestors. Calm down and stop spreading rumors you read on Walkon.org.
     
  6. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    First of all, what are we protecting the contry from? Nothing. There is not even a threat of invasion. Only the possibility that there MIGHT be a future attack on our american soil. But is that enough to give up our freedom to choose if we will fight for the country, and to be forced to die for a cause that some of us don't even believe in? NO! It's not. I certainly do not support the war in Irag. What would be the point of living in this FREE country if we aren't even fully free. What is the point of making this country a free place when the govenrment goes back on what they say. I would rather be free and live with war, than be forced to do things to protect our security.

    "A man willing to give up his freedom for security deserves neither."
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2004
  7. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Ok i didn't mean that we are on the brink of it. I am talking about being one step closer to it. There is also the patriot act which 3 generations have not had to deal with in which I think the government is aloud to monitor some certain things that people do. That along with being able to re-instate the draft is just one step closer to that form of government. I'm not saying that this will happen anytime soon if it ever does even happen. I am just saying that this country is straying away from some of the ideas upon which it was founded.
     
  8. berennluthien

    berennluthien New Member

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    One of the articles given by Tamzen:

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS...raft/index.html

    That article states Rumsfeld's opposition of the draft:

    "Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told reporters Tuesday he sees no need for a draft. He said the military is managing to attract enough skilled recruits without one.

    "We're not going to re-implement a draft. There is no need for it at all," Rumsfeld said. "The disadvantages of using compulsion to bring into the armed forces the men and women needed are notable."

    I had also heard about the high rates of military enrollment too, that is why I wanted to get more information b/c it just did not make sense to me. It is interesting that these bills include women in the draft.
     
  9. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Well that's good then that Rumsfeld is against it. And I think the thing about women for the draft is that they will have to take non-militant positions.
     
  10. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    You would rather be free and live with war? How can you be fully free when you are fighting an enemy that wants to kill you and destroy your way of life? And by going into Iraq, we are protecting ourselves from terrorists. This isn't the same kind of war as WW I, WW II, where it was 100% clear who and where the enemy was. These people are all over the world, including Iraq. There were terrorist training camps in Iraq. Have you even heard of Samon Pac (not quite sure about the spelling there)? Located smack dab in the middle of Iraq were terrorists were trained to hijack airplanes.
     
  11. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    Now, I'm not for re-instating the draft, because we don't need to, but how would doing so make us a totalitarian government and turn us away from ideas upon which this country was founded?
     
  12. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    D@amn right i would rather be free and have to live with the POSIBILITY that there might be a war, than to be controlled by a government that makes me do what they want to do so that this country can live being protected. And I can tell you this: every one of our founding fathers have, and would be saying the exact same thing. That is the WHOLE reason why this nation was founded. This country was founded on FREEDOM. Not security. Answer me this, would you rather live in a communistic country that controls its people but its borders secure? " A man willing to give up his freedom for security deserves neither." First off Irag does not pose an extreme major threat to us so much that we fear invasion of them on our own US soil. Which means acctual Irag soldiers being in our country and Sh00ting people on the streets. Yes they do pose the posibility of threat, but so will some other country till the day we die. And you are correct, this is nothing like WW1 and 2. In this war we are the agressors for no reason. Everyone here needs to read the book 1984. And after reading that, if you can honestly tell me that you would rather live in that kind of a world (where people are controlled but the nation is secure), over a nation that is free and the people have rights and might live with a war then you are a sick human being despite however you are. Now I am not saying that this country is in any way like Oceania from 1984, but that is what the draft is. It forces people to loose their FREEDOM to choose and fight for a cause that not even everyone believes in. Yes freedom is absolutely MUCH MUCH more precious to me than security. My right to speak is more important than whether or not I live or not based on a circumstance that I would have to give it up.

    "I may h@te what you have to say, but I will defend to my de@th, your right to say it."
    -Voltaire

    Again, this country was founded so that the citizens that live here could be free, and would not have to deal with things like these drafts, and other situations where people would be forced to do things against their will. This country was founded to get away from the british government, who at that time was forcing them to do things against their will. This country was not founded in order to keep its borders secure. It was founded on the belief that the right to speak IS mre important than the security of the homeland. Even if there is this war or any war was a just war, it is still wrong to draft citizens into the army against their will. And that is why Freedom is the most important thing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2004
  13. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Well it's quite simple. Our nation was founded on the Freedoms of people. Our freedom and right to privacy our freedom and right to speak or say what we want to, our freedom to choose, our freedom to CHOOSE TO FIGHT in the army. The WHOLE point why America was started was to avoid things like the patriot act and things like drafting where we loose some of our rights. So obviosly, if we ARE instating a draft, we are going against the ideas of why we were founded. Now once again I am saying that we are no where near a totalitarion government, but having the draft is just like a toltalitarion government. Totalitarion governments are government bodies in which they control every aspect of the person and every individual citizen is told what to do and have no free rights at all. The draft is mearly an example of what a totalitarion government would do in which it forces people against their will to do something for the government.
     
  14. Arijah

    Arijah The Firstborn

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    If I remember my history right...Americans fought for their independence/freedom, and while they were at it got some security.

    If I also remember right, many colonists did not believe in fighting England for our independence because they'd rather have security instead of freedom...hmmmm...look at where we are today.

    I have more peace of mind that a true totalitarian dictator is out of power, stripped of any and all possibilities of making dirty bombs, than I would if he were still in power, but all we did was sit here and because he hadn't done anything yet, and because of that we forgot to care. It was only a matter of time people that Saddam would have done something, even if he eliminated any trace of it back to him, he still bore a grudge over 1991, and he was a constant provocation to the United States.

    Depending on whichever point of view, one view will not see the cause that the other side does.

    Thanks to a politically correct culture here in America, the news or anybody for that matter will never tell it like it is because no one is allowed to be offended anymore.

    Militant Islam HATE us. The news will not tell you that. They will commit suicide and try to take as many as possible. Did people really forget 9/11? What did we do? Pretty much nothing in terms of what you and I might see as something worth fighting over. We supported Israel, and embraced Christianity. Those two issues alone are worth Islamic militants training terrorists, and in the name of their religion showing no partiality to innocent people.

    Did anyone see the Nick Berg video? Did anyone know that Nick Berg was Jewish, and American?

    Honestly speaking, no one is opposing the war. They are opposing the premise on which we went to war. You don't see anybody wishing Saddam was still in power, and that we had never invaded.

    BACK TO THE DRAFT ISSUE...

    When I turned 18, I registered with Selective Services...basically I signed up for the draft, plus voting, plus jury duty etc. but mainly for the Draft. That's really what it is. The Draft is only reinstated when there is a need for it.

    When your country needs you, it is your duty as a citizen to answer that call whether you agree with it or not. Your loyalty lies within your country...not your own ideals, not your own agenda, but YOUR country's. Freedom never came without sacrifice, and those who have it must be willing to sacrifice their freedom and security in the hopes that our future can have it. I swear people are becoming more and more selfish, because freedom is not solely about your ability to choose. It's simply more about being able to live, and pursue happiness without worrying what someone is going to do to try and stop that, and then having the ability to rise up and stop them if they try.

    Do you really think American Revolutionaries had the freedom we have today even after the war? No, but thanks to their willingness to sacrifice security and finally stick it to an empire that wouldn't/couldn't let go, we enjoy our Freedom today, and we shouldn't be so cocky, idealistic, and arrogant to think that we might not be called upon to do the same even on a smaller scale, or on a different battleground with a different war cry.

    We are not fighting an organized army. We are fighting, and going after people who HATE us, and will not stop until they have brought with them to their death, dozens of people in order to make a statement.

    Anti-war people urge diplomacy...Diplomacy for what? We go at them with a white flag, we get fired at or suicide bombed. Diplomacy only works between two socially civilized parties, and militant Islam is not one of them.

    There is nothing extremely right about this war, or extremely wrong about this war for anybody to sit there and say, "I won't fight." This war was necessary, and it's a pity that over time the premise has been distorted and otherwise made inaccurate.
     
  15. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    For starters, Arijah, you know who you sound most like? militant islamic extremists-- just substitute americans everywhere you mention extremists and you have the way they feel about us. Beyond that your argument is a gross and uninformed simplification of the issues islamists have with us. (One of which would be are ridiculously unfounded zealous support for israel -- but that is another thread).

    Also, the alleged connection in Iraq had little to do with us. Even Bush and his administration admitted there was no connection to bin Laden -- BEFORE THE WAR.

    Further, Sadam was no militant Islamist. He was about as secular a dictator as they come. The only time he ever even used religion was as an excuse for destroying the shi'ite muslim majority in his own country. He was a ic psycho, yes, but he was no religious fanatic. Besides his only reason for hating us is cuz we turned on him. we put him in power and then didnt like the way he did things so we have been against him since.

    As for no one being against the war on principle that is simply ridiculous. plenty do. few think the world isnt better off without him in power, but that doesnt mean they agree with us removing him, not to mention our reasons for the war. he was leader of a sovereign nation, you can no more support removing him without cause (ie: imminent and assured direct threat to us) than you can support ists attacking us cuz they don't like the way we run things in our sovereign nation. besides, if i went around taking out everyone in this country i thought the world would be better off with out they would call me a vigilante or serial killer and i would most definitely be put in jail.



    All of that aside and getting back on topic, i do believe people should have a sense of duty and loyalty and fight to protect this country when it is in peril. however, i never believe they should be forced to, and not even expected to for something like this where the country is not in peril (even the administration admits we were not). Reasons for doing things are actually very important.

    As for the loyalists to england who didnt fight with us for independence, they werent wholesale jailed for it either. and interestingly enough, we would have been had we lost. thats right, we were fighting for our right not to be forced to do things for our country. now i'm not saying that we should always do whatever we want regardless of the good of the nation, but we should not be forced to risk in a war that has NOTHING to do with protecting our country. and we should not ever give up our RIGHT TO CHOOSE. After all this country was founded/created by an act of treason -- from the beginning we have valued freedom over security.
     
  16. Arijah

    Arijah The Firstborn

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    Do you ever watch the news? Did you see the Nick Berg video in which the man speaking mentioned our alliance with Israel, the occupation, etc...as a reason for their militant behavior? That is not unfounded. Think of all the problems in Palestine over the past 50 years, and tell me militant islam won't resent any ally to Israel? Here in America we have/had our Hatfields and McCoy's, over there you have Jews and Muslims and trust me, trust them, it's not a loving relationship.

    No religious fanatic? A mosque with passages of the Koran transcribed on the walls purportedly in his own blood? Remember his rhetoric during Gulf War 1? What about his rhetoric toward this one? C'mon dude, if anything he sounded like a militant islam guy as opposed to diplomatic victim of diplomacy gone wrong. You can't be a complete secular Muslim in that culture and somehow be in power.

    Go over the past 13 years of history we've had with Iraq...and you will find that I am right, and you are wrong concerning him being a threat. Saddam has repeatedly like any politician or leader, talked big in order to keep his standing among his own people to give off the appearance of strength...in doing so he made claims and talked certain trash that strongly suggested that Saddam cannot under any circumstance be trusted. I am friends with several Muslims, and although they are not fans of Bush or the Iraq situation they cannot deny, and insist that Saddam brought the war upon himself. His leadership was tyrannical, and rigged every "election" much more than it was sovereign.

    Now for no one opposing the war on principle...that is a true statement in that people are not opposed to having had Saddam removed. Like I said, people are more opposed at the premise of why we did what we did, when we did it.

    You going around taking out everyone you didn't like is irrelevant. Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2004
  17. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    For starters, you misinterpreted what i said in the first part. I didn't say that their dislike of us for our support of israel was unfounded, i said our support of israel is and has been unfounded. Their dislike of that situation is justified.

    Second, as I said, Sadam was noteworthy for his use of his religion for legitimacy in the eyes of his people, not his adherence. You said it yourself, you couldn't be a leader there if you weren't thought religious by the people, that doesn't mean you actually are. There have been many books and news reports on the subject, this is not just personal speculation.
    Also, i didn't mean to make him sound like a victim of diplomacy gone wrong. He is a horrible person and has done horrible things. What I'm saying is that we also to some extent knew that before but it wasn't as bad to our government when he was performing the function we wanted him to. We don't dislike him because he is Musliim; we dislike him because we don't agree with the way he does things.

    Third, people do oppose the war on principle. I know several and know of plenty more. Therefore that is not a true statement. Like I said, no one thinks his people would be better off with him, but many people think we had no right to remove him whether or not they are better off. If he had posed a direct threat to us (and again you are wrong, he did not), that would have been the only acceptable justification for violating sovereignty. Whether or not he was a threat thirteen years ago, or even 5 years ago is irrelevant. He was not a threat at the time we invaded, and we didn't invade when we could justifibly have during Desert Storm.

    Which brings me to... sovereignty has nothing to do with democracy and elections. He could have not bothered with elections, and outright declared himself a dictator and that would have made no difference. Iraq is recognized by the US and UN as a sovereign nation, which means (no matter who rules, and no matter how horrific a tyrant they may be) it answers to no other authority above itself. Just like us. It is not acceptable for us to violate this without provocation... unless of course you think we should "liberate" every other non- truly- democratic nation in the world. I think you will find that even for us, that would be quite impossible.
    So yes, on principle, he should not have been removed, as we did not have a viable reason for doing so.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2004
  18. Ejp414

    Ejp414 New Member

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    As stated before, this is actually a funny situation. The people pushing a draft are connected with the anti-war effort. Doesn't make sense? Well, think about this, how many more people are against the war now that there is a possibility of a draft being reinstated? A lot. It is a genius move by those against the war.

    Now, the main question, will there be a draft reinstated? No way. Votes in congress are public record, voting in favor of a draft is political suicide.

    Don't worry about it, really.

    -Erick

    EDIT: And by the way, I oppose the war. If other presidents can avoid full-scale wars time after time with either smaller operations or diplomacy, why can't Bush do the same in Iraq?

    If I was in charge, I wouldn't pull out now though... too late.
     
  19. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Hmm, interesting theory there. I wonder if that is really what is goin on there at capitol hill.
     
  20. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Yer talking about guys who passed a bill commerating the memory of the boston strangler. Those guys will do anything for publicity or prove a point.