Rants, Raves, "God" & Overall thoughts on life

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Boomer, Sep 9, 2003.

  1. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    Tin,

    I've been married for 7 years. I do not find it a salvation. Rather a burden. Love is not always enough to make life run smoothly. And I'm completely sure this impacts my point of view.
     
  2. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Nienor,

    I am being totally presumptuous to say that I think that Jeff means that the feelings that love give you, the food it provides to your soul, is the salvation. And if that isn't what Jeff means, just substitute my name for Jeff's in this post then. ;)
     
  3. Boomer

    Boomer BANNED

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    The death thing brings a good point though. If you were wrong and you believe in some sort of God wouldn't you know it? Because almost every religion has some sort of afterlife. I consider love a salvation because I can always goto it when I need it most. And I do. I think to be able to put all your trust into someone is an amazing thing and if you can accomplish with that without second guessing or being worried about getting your heart broken you are well on your way to being a very happy person. Although people do slip up every now and again it is you believing in them that will get you through the slips.
     
  4. Boomer

    Boomer BANNED

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    Good post Tinny. Put both our names there.
     
  5. Dragonfly

    Dragonfly Guest

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    First off, on religion, I believe in God, no doubt. It if thermodynamically impossible for everything to be in existence if something or someone did not create it. i don't believe in religion. It is hypocrytical. Isn't one of the commandments "Love your neighbor as you love thyself"? Well why is it that we have different denominations? Why is it that in the Catholic religion only catholics can receive communion and those of other christian religions can't? If we all believe in the same higher power why do we segregate practically the same beliefs about the Bible and God? Its never made sense to me. I firmly believe that God still loves me even tho I don't go to church unless i have to because teh church of God is the entire world. People need to learn to understand adn appreciate that rather than destroy it in the name of God or whatever.
    Secondly, the love thing, why does the word salvation associated with God? Because it is always used in church or in the Bible? Boom only meant when he said salvation was that love is a comfort zone for him. It has nothing really to do with belief. He wakes up every morning feeling relieved and comfy knowing that he is loved, whether he knows he is or not. Love is a funny thing... everyone has different opinions about it. And if we take the religiousness (I mean the word salvation) out of it then we will all be onthe same page. Love is just intangable thing that makes us feel good. It is not the answer to all of our questions but it makes us feel better about ourselves and makes us want to spread our wonderful emotion to others, not through God. But hey thats what I think....
     
  6. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Nienor,

    I am very sorry that you seem to be feeling melancholy in regards to your marriage. Marriage does not always equal love(but I am SO not saying that you have a loveless marriage). My DH and I have been together 8 years and I would be lying if I said I sat around composing poems to my beloved whilst he serenaded me with love songs. Nope, it is hard ass work. Hard. Worth all of the blood, sweat, and tears though. ( Well, not so much blood.;) )
    The feelings that I derive from the fruits of my labors are what I consider a salvation. Again, food for the soul is the only thing I can liken it to.
     
  7. Boomer

    Boomer BANNED

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    Although I cannot say anything about marriage cause I am not married. Everyone goes thorugh problems and things so you learn to get through them.

    Dragonfly,
    That was a great post anf I am not just saying that because you are my girlfriend. I am saying that from a debating standpoint. It was the right amount of your own thoughts with a philosphical point. Good work.
     
  8. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    Dragonfly,
    The word salvation can be used in references other than God. But much of it's current use is in the religious world (i.e. Are you saved?) So, I thought the coincidence to be interesting.
    It's interesting to see someone believe in God from a rather scientific point. Most people who believe in science, think it explains everything and discredits God entirely.

    Tinuviel,
    Blood :eek: Oh dear. J/K. :)
    I'll agree that marriage is hard work. Sometimes the monotony and work of being married can destroy the love you originally had. But most marriages have their ups and downs, I expect that. While it's not much fun being in one of those down times, life's not always perfect. And usually it gets better in the future. Guess it's kinda like the stock market.

    Boom,
    In theory, I agree with everything you say. Love should be exactly like that. But it can be very difficult to put those thoughts into action.
     
  9. Winterine

    Winterine Ranger-Bard

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    Jeff,
    That's good to hear, and I agree, even if sometimes I feel like forever is too long. But I have to aske, what happens if instead of going back to normal, all the wrinkles are back? Some unforseen circumstance? Out of curiosty, how would you hypothetically feel if one day you woke up and found that living embodiment of love that you found was gone? Example via death? Would you consider for a moment turning to a higher power (eg God) for comfort? Or...I'm not sure. I think I'm talking off topic now.

    I believe in science, being something of a scientist, but I also believe there are places science definately should not even try to go, eg. religion, psychicness, love...

    I agree. A church is a building constructed by man for like-minded to gather, is my opinion.

    And just on the topic of love, does anyone believe in soul mates? How many can a person have? Only one?
     
  10. Boomer

    Boomer BANNED

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    Winterine.
    I feel that love will still be there. How can you not love someone the same or even more when they die? I believe in soul mates whole heartedly. Thorugh and through.
     
  11. doleniel

    doleniel Elven High Priestess

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    *Reading above posts* Wow. First of all I must say this is the best philosophical discussion thread I have ever seen.

    Secondly, I must say I agree with just about every single word Boom has said in this thread.

    I do believe in the power of love, and I agree in a way the love is a salvation. If only all people could turn their hate for those that are different to love, than we would have world peace. Think about it, if there was no war, millions of people who might die fighting would instead live long, and hopefully happy lives. In this case, love truely would have saved them. And I do believe in soul mates, and also love at first sight. I for one cannot wait until I find love.

    I also believe that it is very rude to ask someone what their religion is. Really, if you are a kind person with a good heart, what should it matter if you are Christian, or Buddhist, or Agnostic? You may need good morals to be a certain religion, but you do not need to be a certain religion to have good morals.

    Along the same lines, I for one hate proseletizing. A persons choice of religion is their own, and nobody has any say over it. If the whole world followed one religion and one set of ideals, life would be really boring, because noone would have a different opinion. So you think I will go to Hell just because I am a Wiccan? Fine then. I'm sure your god will be glad you are judging my soul, so he won't have to take the time to when I die. Honestly, all religions (with the exception of Satanism and a few other similar cases) are religions of love and tolerance, and trying to convert a person does not click with the ideal of tolerance in my opinion.

    On the earlier comments about organized religions being cults, I think this is both true and not true. The word cult is defined by these definitions:"A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader."
    "The followers of such a religion or sect."
    "A system or community of religious worship and ritual."
    "The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual."
    "A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease."

    "Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing."
    "The object of such devotion."
    "An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest."
    By some of these definitions, all religions are cults. Others of these include only non-orthodox religions, and still others do not include any religions at all. It all depends on how you define cult.

    Peace Out :cool:
     
  12. Squall Leonhart

    Squall Leonhart Wielder of the Gunblade

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    I am thinking we should all rethink our careers and be either lawyers or politicians.
     
  13. Boomer

    Boomer BANNED

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    I would not go that far all I am saying is that I know the people on this forum are real people with real opinions and they need to be heard you know? Thanks for your input Dol.
     
  14. Khamul

    Khamul Roaming

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    Love the sinner, hate the sin. The moral character of a person really does not matter in the Christian standpoint. Morals is not the path to heaven, and that is obvious from the standpoint of Ephesians 2:8-9. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast." The Bible does say that by works we will be able to see the fruit of salvation, but works are a cause and not an effect of salvation.

    On the love aspect, 1 John 5:17 says, "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love. In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him. In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also must love one another. No one has ever seen God. Yet, if we love one another, God remains in us, and his love is brought to perfection in us."

    The fact is that the love between humans will never reach the point of agape love. Are there people that will die for you? I personally know of several people that would give up their life for mine, and I would give up my life as well if I knew someone who did not know Christ would die in my place. Is that agape love? Maybe, in a small sense, but I really do not think that humans can grasp the potency of such love, and we instead rely on smaller forms of love, though they still have a great potency.

    1 Corinthians 13:8 gives us the answer: " Love (agape) never fails…" Jeff, you yourself said that you know people will mess up, and that love will continue to accept them. If a man's wife cheats on him, spoils his name, and then leaves him, does he have a great love for that person? I seriously doubt that he does, and I can say that if that happened to me, I would probably be driven to hate that person. That is the natural tendency of humans.

    Doleniel, you can be the most pious person in the world, and still never be good enough. Romans 3:23 says clearly that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

    Now for the question of the accuracy of the Bible.

    How We Know the Bible Is Historically Accurate, # 1

    1.) The closeness of the original writing to the oldest extant text
    (the bibliographical test).

    For example : Aristotle lived from 384-322 BC but the earliest copy of his writings
    date from 1,100 AD (a 1,400 years span).

    Tacitus wrote around 100 AD, but the earliest copy of his writings date from 1,100 A.D
    (a 1,100 year span)

    Plato lived from 427-347 BC, but the earliest copy of his writings dates from 900 AD
    (a 1,200 year span)

    Aristophenes lived from 460-385 BC, but the earliest copy of his writings
    dated from 900 AD (a 1,200 year span)


    Biblical Manuscript, however, dates from as early as 80 years
    from the Original manuscripts.


    For example, the Gospel Mark was written around 48 AD
    The oldest manuscript of Mark dates from 130 AD

    The John Ryland Papyrus dates from 125 AD,
    The Chester Beatty Papyri dates from 200 AD,
    The Bodmer PapyrusII dates from 150-200 AD,

    The Codex Sinaiticus dates from 350 AD,
    The codex Alexandrinus dates from 400 AD,
    The Codex Bezae dates from 450 AD,
    The Codex Valicanus dates from 325-350 AD

    2.) The Number of Surviving Manuscripts:

    Author Number of Surviving Manuscripts

    Caesar ----------------------------------------> 10
    Plato ------------------------------------------> 7
    Tacitus ----------------------------------------> 20
    Sophocles -------------------------------------> 193
    Suetonius -------------------------------------> 8
    Herodotus ------------------------------------> 8
    Thucydides -----------------------------------> 8
    Aristotle --------------------------------------> 49
    Aristophenes ---------------------------------> 10
    The New Testament ------------------------->5,000

    By the accuracy of transmission over the years.
    The Dead Sea Scrolls illustrate this:



    Prior to their discovery the oldest complete copies of the Hebrew Old Testament in our possession dated from around 900 AD. These texts are called the "Massoretic Text." But when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947 we now were able to compare the Massoretic texts with texts 1,000 years older, to see just how carefully the older texts had been transmitted. A committee known as the Essenes copied (the Dead Sea Scrolls. They lived at Qumran from 150 BC to 70 AD When they saw the Roman armies invade circa 66 -70 AD they put the leather scrolls in jars & hid them in caves on the west side of the Dead Sea).

    A complete copy of Isaiah 53 with the Massoretic Isaiah revealed 17 difference of letters. Ten of these were differences in spelling, like our 'honor' or 'honour' This obviously made no difference in meaning. Four differences were the absence or presence of the conjunction -- a difference of style only. The last three differences are in the Hebrew word for 'light' which is added after "they shall see" in verse 11. Out of 166 words in this chapter only this one word "light" is really in question, & it does not change the sense of the passage. This is typical of the Dead Sea manuscripts.

    Another way we know the Bible is accurate is by the care in transmission of the manuscripts. As mentioned above the Massoretes copies & preserved copies of the Old Testament for many years. One method they used to make sure they copied the Old Testament correctly was to give each letter of the Hebrew alphabet a numerical value, sum each sentence they copied, & then sum the sentence in the text they were copied from. If the totals did not match they knew they made an error. They would then destroy the copy with the error in it, even if it were the last sentence on the scroll!

    Remember the printing press had not been invented yet. All copying had to be done by hand.

    * * Part 3 * *

    1.) The Septuagint proves that the Old Testament prophecies were made hundreds of years before Christ. The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Old Testament (it is usually abbreviated LXX). Ptolemy Philadelphus of Egypt (ruled 285-246 BC) ordered 70 Greek & Hebrew scholars to produce the translation, which was completed by 250 BC & contains every book of the Old Testament with the exception of Ester. Thus, we know the prophecies about Christ were written at least 250 years before Christ fulfilled them.

    2.) Non-Biblical historians of the first & second centuries mentioned Jesus Christ. Pliny the younger (Plinius Secundus, AD 112), Epistles X.96.

    * * One translation may be found in W.M.L. Hutchinson's book, Pliny's Letters, Volume 2, 1915, p. 6156

    * * Suetonius (120 AD), Life of Claudius 25.4 One translation may be found in Robert Graves', The Twelve Caesars, 1957, p. 197.

    * * Tacitus, Cornelius (55-120 AD?), Annals XV.44. One translation may be found in DR Dudley's, The Annals of Tacitus, 1966, pp. 353-4

    The following is a reproduction of the last reference.

    Nero looked around for a scapegoat, & infected the most fiendish tortures on a group of people who already hated by the people for their crimes. This was the sect known a Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again & spread, not merely through Judeah, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir & collecting ground for every kind of depravity & filth. Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race. They were put to death amid every kind of mockery. Dressed in the skins of wild beasts, they were torn to pieces by dogs, or were crucified, or burned to death: when night came, they served as human torches to provide lights. Jewish historians who mention Jesus include: Flavius Joseph (37-97) in Antiquities, the Talmud, & Teledoth Jesu Gentile historians who mention Jesus include Thallus (52 AD) Emperor Trajan, Emperor Hadrian, Lucian, & Mara Bar-Serapion. Christian historians who mentioned Jesus include: Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Quadratus, & Justin Martyr.

    ====================

    Alright, now we will move on to why there are so many different translations of the Bible.

    1.) There are two methods of Translating from one language
    to another.

    Method--1: The FORMAL CORRESPONDENCE METHOD takes one Greek or Hebrew word & translates it into English. Then they go to the next Greek or Hebrew word & translate it. The King James (KJV), Revised Standard (RSV), & New American Standard (NASV) are good examples of this method.

    These are very accurate translations but sometimes they are difficult to understand because Hebrew culture is so very different from American culture.

    For example, the Jews believed the seat of our emotions is in our bowels. Thus, 1 John 3:17 is translated: "But who so hath this world's good, & seeth his brother have need, & shutteth up his BOWELS OF COMPATION from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" (KJV)

    Method--2: The DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCE METHOD takes a sentence of Greek or Hebrew words & interprets it into modern day term that the average American understands. The New International (NIV), Good News (GNV), & Living Bible (LB) are good examples of this method.

    These versions are much easier to understand but are NOT as accurate in translating the original Greek or Hebrew words. Thus, 1 John 3:17 is interpreted like this:

    "If anyone has material possessions & sees his brother in need but has NO PITY on him, how can the love of God be in him?" (NIV) Compare "BOWELS OF COMPASSION" with "NO PITY" & you will see why there are two different philosophies of translating... We NEED BOTH methods to accurately understand what God is saying.

    2.) When the King James Version (KJV) was translated in 1611, the only copies of the original Greek & Hebrew texts that we had, dated from 900A.D. Since the KJV was translated we have found MANY MANY Earlier copies of the original Greek & Hebrew texts.

    For example, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947. These copies of the Old Testament were copied around the time of Christ Jesus, almost one thousand years earlier then the ones used to translate the KJV!

    We now have a Greek scroll of the Gospel of Mark that was dated from 130A.D, almost 800 years earlier than the ones used to translate the KJV! The closer we get to the original autographs the more Accurate our Bible will be.

    The Greek & Hebrews texts used to translate the KJV have some minor additions to them made by well meaning scribes, but clearly not written by the Original authors. The KJV includes these verses in their translation, where newer versions omitted them.

    3.) We understand the meaning of more Greek & Hebrew words today than did scholars at the time of the KJV was translated. As a result the KJV contains words that are mistranslated. Newer versions have corrected these mistranslations.



    That's all I have for now. Hopefully that is able to be followed. Let me know if I need to clear anything up a bit.
     
  15. Boomer

    Boomer BANNED

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    ok I guess I should intervine here. I would rather stay away from the whole bible this, bible that stuff. I think this is more of a personal opinion thread and it should be kept that way. Yes you may be the holiest person or whatever, who knows if you are. But anyways the fact is by stating things from the bible as facts you are not expressing your opinion and that was the case in this thread. If we wanted to have facts of the bible, etc I think I would have started the thread out that way. Although I did not start the thread giving facts I understand where you are coming from. However, I think you should express your thoughts and not those from a book. I do not see how one can follow a bible though. It is a known fact that it is 90% impossible for someone to say a message/story to some sone else, etc. etc and by then end of everything have it be the same message. You have all done this game in school as an icebreaker or listening excersise. So how can the bible be true? I don't think it is. And yes I may be offending many people here however I just do not see how something written like that could be. I will not go as far as saying it is farse but I will go as far as saying for someone to believe in everything the bible teaches takes a lot of gusto and believing on their part and I honour that. I just think our lives are to short to have them run by someone you never see or have a conversation with. Just seems sketchy to me.
     
  16. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    Khamul- despite the fact that I take no stock in the Bible (nor can I agree with your post)..I am impressed by the length you've gone to try and prove its validity. :D
     
  17. doleniel

    doleniel Elven High Priestess

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    I personally believe that people who do really really bad things but claim to be good Christians are hypocritical and simply paying lip service to the religion they were brought up into. In my opinion, a true Christian is someone who always acts with good intentions and a kind heart, one who always follows the commandment about "love thy neighbor" Murder in the name of God is still murder, and it is never purposefully committed with a kind heart and good intentions. Jesus did not hate his people for wanting him dead, he did not hate Judas Iscariot for betraying him. I believe this should be the path of a true Christian, to be patient and tolerant even when patience and tolerance are not given back.

    And I agree with Arwen. I have great respect for a person to take the time to express his/her true beliefs to others without sounding very preachy. I am quite impressed.
     
  18. Winterine

    Winterine Ranger-Bard

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    Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Jeff :)
    And goodie! I believe in soul mates too, but I find it surprisingly hard to find others who really believe in it wholeheartedly as well.
     
  19. Boomer

    Boomer BANNED

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    Ok so if God Love's everyone why should he help a group of people who are not living to love others? It is not his job nor his responsibility. Its ours. If you believe in the whole God bit. I firmly feel that one cannot be bound by a greater being. What if everything you have ever been told is a lie? So you give up your life to god for what? So you can say you were holy? So people will remember you later on because you went to church every Sunday? I am sorry but it won't happen. There are millions like you all over the world. I choose to be that different person who lives his life everyday like it is his last. I do everything I can in that day so I can be remembered one day as someone who lived well. That's all.
     
  20. Khamul

    Khamul Roaming

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    How can you trust any form of history though? The Bible passes every test that is used to prove that History is accurate with flying colors. I documented alot of those tests in my previous post. If you still don't believe the Bible to accurate, do so on the actual beliefs in it, and not the accuracy of the text.

    Doleniel, when you say that, you really are not being too specific towards Christianity. Maybe a substitution with a Good person and a Christian could make it a bit clearer. Christianity is attached to Christians, which is basically Followers of Christ.

    Yes, that's fact, sound reasoning, etc. Christians make mistakes too though, and like everyone, they feel bad for what they do. No one on earth is perfect, everyone will let you down.

    Thank you, both of you. :)

    Alright, if you guys have any questions about Christianity, let me know.