Punishing Women Who’s Rights Have Been Taken Away From Them

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Quercus, Oct 17, 2004.

  1. Quercus

    Quercus The Very Last Entwife

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    If the Bush administration succeeds in reversing the Roe vs. Wade decision and women are no longer allowed their right to choose, how do you think that a woman who then dares to have an illegal abortion should be punished?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2004
  2. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Ok a tiered system:

    for an girl under 18: end of parental priviledges, girl placed in juvenile home until 18

    otherwise:
    from day after to end of first trimester: minimum of one month, maximum of 3 years, prorated for length of term.

    from end first trimester to end of second: minimum of 3 years, maximum of 20 years, prorated for length of term.

    from end of second trimester to end of third: minimum of 20 years, maximum of life, prorated by length of term.

    alterations: possible considerations for rape MAY reduce sentance. A provable 'hazard to the life of mother' case allows dismissal of case. A miscarry provably caused by the actions of the mother (alcohol, drugs, home brew abortion) are treated as an abortion. Birth defects provably caused by actions of the mother (alcohol, drugs) cause removal of parental rights, possible jail term depending on the level of abuse.

    For the performer of the procedure or administer of medication: 20 years to life.
    Multiple counts (by mother) opens considerations for life regardless of term.

    In any case the object of the court is to stand for and protect the rights of the child.
     
  3. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh man, Bush is trying to overturn Roe vs Wade? This will only result in "backyard" abortions. Nothing will change in terms of numbers of abortions, only the numbers of women dying or being rendered incapable of having children will rise.
     
  4. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Funny thing is, he's not. He's definitely against partial birth abortion and he would love to limit the number of abortions, but he's for strengthening birth control advocacy and abstenence. Only Kerry is claiming Bush will ban abortion, reinstate the draft, so forth (though Kerry is claiming he will add 40,000 more soldiers in Iraq, how he can do this without reinstating the draft i will never know. republicans even defeated a DEMOCRATIC bill that wanted to reinstate the draft less than two weeks ago). Many movie stars, like Cameron Diaz when she was on Oprah, claims Bush wants to "make rape legal" by banning abortion. How ubsurd.
     
  5. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    For the forreigners, where are we on abortion in America? Far as I know, it is still illegal, but how does it work atm?

    Tips for unwanterd child baring women, take the first flight to Amsterdam and go to the nearest hospital. Problem solved, no chance of inprisonment.
     
  6. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    And stay there.
     
  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    That would be one option... If you are up for a happier life, at any rate... To be honest, I think that was your weakest arguement up to this point.

    Now, enough of the grudges, let's have a proper discussion. I asked where America is on Abortion. Is, for instance the "morning after pill" legalised? What is the defenition of abortion here?
     
  8. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    Scary how much thought you put into that first post, Karaton. :eek:

    Currently abortion is legal in any trimester. Including the "partial birth" abortions. Which are much rarer than people lead you to believe. The morning after pill is legal and generally give to a woman after she has been raped. In addition, most packets of birth control pills will tell you how to use them for a morning after pill. Abortions here are generally surgically performed, I believe it Europe it's more common to take a pill, right?

    Personally, I doubt Bush plans to outlaw abortion. I do not ever see that happening. Since it was a Supreme court decision that made it legal, I would assume it would take the same to reverse it. While I'm not a Bush supporter, Kerry's campaign has been full of unproven facts thrown at Bush.

    Far as punishment is concerned. I don't think there's any legal penalty for self mutilation, so why should there be punishment for an illegal abortion?
     
  9. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    See, that is and always has been the crux of the argument. Make abortion illegal, there will be other ways. But the poor and destitute can't just hop a flight to Amsterdam. Likely, it'll be in a bathroom with a self-induced abortion or a back alley one, both of which can end in the death of the woman.

    Question is, how exactly is one to be found guilty of the crime? A pregnancy registry? When you have girls giving birth without their parents aware of their pregnancy, how do you propose to catch them? Does it have to be red-handed with coat hanger in hand? (pun intended!)

    And, in principle, why the different levels of punishment based on the state of gestation? The whole argument that anti-abortionists have is that it's murder. Is the crime less for murdering a 5-year-old than, say, a ten-year-old? So why should a 2-month abortion be less than a 5-month one?
     
  10. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well, that depends on the time of abortion. Up to a period a pill is used (I believe the first Trimester), then it's to the OR.

    ... Progressive, non the less. Abortion in the Netherlands is limited to some time in pregancy. I believe it eclipses with the time it is generally accepted a child has a good chance to survive outside of the womb. At that moment, you will have the baby, to whomever it may belong or whatever malformations it may have.

    I would have to agree, that at some point you could speak of a seperate entity, I have to agree on that. Besides, there is more then enough time to do something about it, before anything is born. I doubt murder, however, if you concider the state of the child/feutus at that stage. It doesn't really have a mind on it's own, and no one (save maybe the father) would be hurt with aborting it before it is born. I think it is very difficult to agree on punishment in this subject, since the mother has suffered to some degree at that point, but let her get away with it freely, if she would do it herself outside the law? I would say 6 months to 3 year, depending on the situation.

    ---EDIT---
    (sky posted on the moment I did)

    Yes, that is a problem. I was only talking about a solution to the legal issue, but you're right. Indeed, trivial ways to abort are very dangerous, and even for that point, there shood always be a door open to the medical way to do it.

    In the end, I would say that 3rd trimester abortion could be outlawed with proper informing on the possibility of earlier abortion.

    Tough one, especially with medical secrecy.

    Well, there is, in this case. The embryo develops trough some stages, including contiousness. At some point, the feutus is a seperate entity from the mother. The point is merely, when could that be concidered? At some point the system switch is turned on, so to say, when mechanisms are started for the first time. Is that the moment we could call it a seperate entity. Or has it to do with brain activity, which kicks in much later. In any case, at some point the feutus is viable, even outside the mother. At that point it has to be a seperate entity at any rate. Some even (normally those close to the church) say that the conjunction of spermatoid and ovum is enough to reach that state. So at any rate, months do matter in this case.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2004
  11. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    I mostly made that comment to see what others would say. ;) But keep in mind, during the first and majority of the second trimester, the fetus is truly a part of the mother. Nothing can keep it alive besides that up til about 23/24 weeks, and even then the survival odds aren't that good.

    If you're a staunchly against abortion, you consider it murder. Therefore it should carry no less than the standard penalty for first degree murder, as it would be a pre-meditated act. That can range from 20 years to life to the death penalty depending upon the state. But ask Skyanide said, how can you prove somebody had an abortion. There's no way of easily telling who's pregnant, most women find out from home pregnancy tests. Who's to say whether a woman had a miscarriage or an abortion?
     
  12. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Yes, *I* realize the "seperate entity and survivability considerations; however many, if not most, anti-abortionists consider a fetus "alive" since the point of conception.
     
  13. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Bush, himself can not easily outlaw abortion. He will however, appoint the four Supreme Court Justices that are expected to retire in the next 4 years. And, of course, if it on his agenda to make abortion illegal, then he will most obviously choose Judges that will rule to overturn that.

    Turumbar, you asked about the current status of abortion in the US. Since Roe vs Wade abortion throughout the first trimeter has been legalized. Some states allow for second trimester abortions due to various causes(choice, birth defects, maternal jepordy, etc, depending upon state). The morning after pill is readily available in the US and is even available online without a prescription. RU486 is not legalized in the US yet(ever?).

    Outlawing abortion is not likely to make an iota of difference in the number of pregnancies terminated. What is more likely to happen is many women and girls will end up dying from failed home abortions and a marked increase in severly deformed babies from untrained attempts. When one goes about trying to scrape clean the uterus it can be a bit tricky to the untrained person.

    Early abortions will remain easily completed. It is not hard to terminate an early pregnancy at all...most people just don't know how. But, 3-4 birth control pills taken at a time for 3 doses every 12 hours will most always result in an abortion in the first few weeks. That is the components of the morning after pill, more or less. This only has a high success rate within the first few weeks of pregnancy though. But, up until 6-8 weeks of pregnancy there are many herbal and exotic tinctures or varients that will abort a fetus. So, as you can see from the limited information that I have given here, outlawing abortion will not offer much change at all. Just more risk to all involved. Unless a woman butchers herself in attempt to slip a pregnancy and must seek medical treatment, the chance of anyone finding out, even that womans own partner or parents, is very slim.
     
  14. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    You caught me. I was going to list the failures and limitations of my plan but it was close to 2am when I finally quit to get a couple hours of sleep for work. Anyway my limitations are these:

    1) How do you know when an abortion has been done? Clearly you need evidence of pregnancy for prosecution to be viable. That normally means willing witnesses or physical evidence. Ill come back to this.

    2) This penalty system is angled toward provability of life. Third trimester abortions are more demonstrably murder. Second and first trimesters are where most miscarriages happen. Mix that with the fact that provability of life is more difficult and I put a lower penalty on it. I realize that this almost encourages early abortions but the penalty is still pretty stiff.. I was hoping it would be enough.

    3) Returning to the first point, I assume very few people would be willing to testify against a woman who had an abortion and physical evidence very hard to come by. That is why I would put the prosecution of 'doctors' who perform them as the priority. And prosecute any women who were so obvious about it that they were caught. The penalty for abortionists is so severe I have a hard time believing many would do it. To support alternatives I would encourage a government matching funds system for any private organization that pays for the birth costs when the mother gives the baby up for adoption.
     
  15. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    What do you call miscarriages in the third trimester? They do happen, you know... They don't all make it to a "healty baby"
     
  16. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    If the baby is born dead, it's called a "stillbirth" :( :( :(
     
  17. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    This is a point for debate, not an opinion - would a doctor's hypocratic oath to protect life be stronger to protect the life and health of a grown woman who is otherwise going to likely harm herself if the doctor does not perform this procedure, or would the hypocratic oath place the unborn foetus as the main priority? Either way, action or inaction will result in harm to one.

    And of course, a doctor is only human, with their own views and opinions and moral codes etc, thus further clouding the picture.
     
  18. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    The hypocratic oath isnt required anymore. Oh, and foreknowledge of an intent to commit a crime (which you are describing) is already a prosecutable offense if the person doesnt report it. Once the doctor has been alerted to the fact that the woman wants to have an abortion, he is compelled by law to report her. Your argument could just as easily be used to rationalize a doctor selling drugs to addicts because the street versions are tainted.


    At this point Im the only one to answer the specific question.. I realize there arent a lot of people who support my side but we already have an abortion thread. Anybody want to brave some specific punishments in opposition to mine?
     
  19. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    For your info, it is the Hippocratic oath, lol. It was named after Hippocrates, not after a questionable state of mind. Docters, however do have to follow strict rules to be able to stay in practice


    (Drug-) addiction is more and more viewed upon as being a disease. At a certain stage people can't help themselves anymore, is the general accepted hypothesis right now. For instance, a junk could become totally dependant on heroin. In that perspective, methadone for instance, could act as a medicine for such patients. I know that in the US those people still have no way to pay for those medications, but in other countries it has proven to prevent criminal behaviour and increase general health and life atandard.

    I already gave my idea about suitable punishments. It's the one as being jumping out compared to your opinion... As usual, I guess...

    I will specify: 6 to 36 months for an abortion in the third trimester. First and second are handled by medical trained specialists or under their supervision. Self abortion in the second trimester could be caugt under a law preventing medical handlings by untrained people, and the prevention for the trained to operate on themselves, should it be invasive. Drug-based abortion should be prescribed by a physisian, not by a pharmacist.
     
  20. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Sorry, I dont memorize the proper spelling for famous Persian figures. I was copying the spelling that mubbaban used. The statement itself still stands.

    Well when you make the drug trade legal, it de facto reduces the infractions. However, it doesnt reduce the problem.

    I have no idea what you said. I get that you are trying to mock my guidelines though...

    Thats a start. 3 years cap for the woman and the physician? At least it is in line with 2nd degree murder in some more lenient states.