President Bush

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Harrison, Jan 27, 2004.

  1. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Again, I would call this arrogance, a position created by being the most powerfull nation in the world. And indeed, maybe I am not in place to comment the American system. But it will break America up, and, alas, it does already! why do you think the whole Arab world is not so pro-America anymore. Why do you think the Euro was introduced? I think both hate america's position at the moment. The Arab world have no answer to the overwhelming power of America, so they started a guerrilia war agains America and it's allies. Europe, however is large, rich and advanced enough to compete with America. And indeed, this is one of the major goals or the EU.

    Well, I don't get your statement. America issued a law that would come in act if an American is hold prison in The Hague, to free the man from the hands of the UN. And besides, 'the' UN is one of the largest organisations in the world and, for instance the UN tribunal, with independant judges, aren't really under the influence of the safety board.

    Now, I would like to hear your suggestion about how to trial war criminals. if not in the way it happens now. America denied the power of this court by the law I just mentioned.

    Yes, maybe so... but did America make any friends with this? I don't think so.

    1) get your facts straight. Carbon Dioxide, however inert it may be, it has a major contribution to global warming. So, it is counted as a pollutant.

    2) Well, I have a hard time actually finding the list of participants. But, as I remembered it, about all of the EU signed, and Russia (Unlike America) is in the process. If Russia signes, more then half of the world (by what count I don't know, but I believe it was population) has signed and the act goes into effect. Needless to say, America still refuses to sign, just as some other fishy UN documents, like the one on nuclear weapons (which it forces upon other nations)
     
  2. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    The arab nations NEVER liked us. Either for the crusades or support for Israel, or the Christian religion, or WWI, or having troops in Iraq and Saudi Arabia, or bombing Libya, or whatever else thay can come up with. The palestinians cheered when 911 happened.

    You cant use all of Europe as if they are all against us. England supports many of our goals and Russia has backed us a lot. What you are saying is that we should be meek -because- we are strong. Well that's fine as an idea but meekness doesnt kill Bin Ladin or capture Saddam. We have played that game before. Back when Clinton tried to use political pressure to back arafat down, or when Carter tried to reason with Iran. It doesnt work because kind words dont get the job done. The countries that complain when we do something forcefully are nations that would use similar tactics against us if they could. You dont think France and Germany's acceptance of bribes were an act of agression toward us? It certainly was.

    The way it happened in Kosovo and after WWII. A unique and independant tribunal is given specific powers to prosecute specific war crimes. For any president to give a supreme authority over american citizens to a foreign court that doesnt have the basic constitutional protections that we have, would be a violation of the constitution. The Hague court is different because it's objectives and powers can be negotiated to the point of fairness on a specific indictment. Besides that I dont like the UN. I think it is generally against the US in principal (rabidly anti-freedom, anti-capitalist) and I disagree with any arrangement that gives them more power against us.



    I hate the idea. I think it killed a lot of friendly sentiment in Europe. By the way, when Kerry is talking about taxing "businesses that move their headquarters offshore" he is talking about tarrifs.

    here are the countries that have some responsibility if they sign:

    Annex I

    * Australia
    * Austria
    * Belarus*
    * Belgium
    * Bulgaria*
    * Canada
    * Czechoslovakia*
    * Denmark
    * European Economic Community
    * Estonia*
    * Finland
    * France
    * Germany
    * Greece
    * Hungary*
    * Iceland
    * Ireland
    * Italy
    * Japan
    * Latvia*
    * Lithuania*
    * Luxembourg
    * Netherlands
    * New Zealand
    * Norway
    * Poland*
    * Portugal
    * Romania*
    * Russian Federation*
    * Spain
    * Sweden
    * Switzerland
    * Turkey
    * Ukraine*
    * United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
    * United States of America

    *Countries that are undergoing the process of transition to a market economy.

    The asterisked countries dont have to make any changes because they are developing. Which leaves the remaining countries to be the only countries with an economic cost to signing the treaty. I hadnt paid attention in a while ... most of the EU has signed the treaty now. If Russia (a developing nation) signs it, it would probably become active. The measurement is by pollution measurements from 1990. It doesnt matter, Global Warming is a theory and a highly fluctuating theory at that. I dont think economic policy should be made on unreliable and pessimistic theory, or in the hopes of making foreign nations happy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2004
  3. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    The Iraq war and occupation compared to the WWII war and occupation.

    War Plan Orange

    In retrospect Saddam's plan to defend Iraq may bear a resemblance to War Plan Orange's retreat into Bataan. Since reinforcements could not come to the aid of US divisions in the Philippine Islands in time to repel an anticipated Japanese invasion, the plan called for the abandonment of the capital and a concentration of forces and supplies into the Bataan peninsula, where MacArthur's forces could hope to hold out until relief eventually arrived. MacArthur attempted to change the plan at the last moment, attempting to fight near the beaches and was belatedly forced readopt the strategy of withdrawing into Bataan, a mistake which cost him thousands of tons in supplies. Still, by skillful rearguard actions at the Agno and Pampanga Rivers, MacArthur slipped 80,000 men into his defensive redoubt and held out for four months. Three years later, Tomoyuki Yamashita, facing the same strategic problem against superior forces, moved his 272,000 troops into the mountainous spine of Luzon where he held out for a little over eight months.

    Faced with an invasion of Iraq in 2003, Saddam carried out his own sideslip maneuver into a redoubt. The Duelfer report notes that Saddam may have begun moving his WMD materials into Syria as the US vainly attempted to get UN authorization to topple his regime.

    Duelfer agreed that a large amount of material had been transferred by Iraq to Syria before the March 2003 war. "A lot of materials left Iraq and went to Syria," Duelfer said. "There was certainly a lot of traffic across the border points. We've got a lot of data to support that, including people discussing it. But whether in fact in any of these trucks there was WMD-related materials, I cannot say."

    At least some of that was the key munition of modern terrorist warfare -- money.

    Syria has acknowledged that its banks have held funds for Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq, reports Geostrategy-Direct, the global intelligence news service. But the regime of President Bashar Assad disputes U.S. officials who say Syria was harboring about $3 billion in Saddam funds. Instead, Syria maintains that its Iraqi assets have not exceeded $300 million.

    If MacArthur's delaying actions at the Agno and Pampanga Rivers enabled him to get his forces into Bataan intact, the successful campaign to prevent the US from pushing the 4ID down from Turkey gave Saddam the time and space to move assets into Syria and disperse munitions and men into the Sunni Triangle. About 600,000 tons of munitions were dispersed throughout the country of which 100,000 tons -- five Hiroshima bombs worth of explosive -- were taken to Anbar province in the Sunni Triangle alone.

    The ammunition is strewn all over Iraq, and provides insurgents with easily accessible free material to make bombs ... "Approximately 100,000 of the estimated 600,000 tons of explosives in the country are located in the Al Anbar Province, I MEF’s area of responsibility," said Army Capt. Elmer Bruner Jr., the officer in charge of the operation for the battalion.

    Nor was there any shortage of men to use these weapons. Former CPA Administrator Paul Bremer noted that 100,000 convicted criminals were released just before US forces overran the cities, ready to be officered, along with many Sunnis, by either the cadre of the former Ba'athist dominated armies or international terrorists flooding in from Iran and Syria. Conceptually, the defense plan was similar to Lieutenant- General Ushijima's scheme to hold Okinawa. He offered no resistance either on the beaches or in the northern part of the island, preferring to withdraw his men behind the Shuri Line, honeycombed with secret tunnels and caves. All the while American forces battered against prepared positions, the Kamikaze suicide corps would take its grim toll of the supply lines and support units offshore until the US population grew weary of war. It was a campaign where nearly 1,000 men could die in an afternoon as actually occurred when Kamikazes hit the Essex class carrier Franklin with heavy loss.

    The Americans lost 7,373 men killed and 32,056 wounded on land. At sea, the Americans lost 5,000 killed and 4,600 wounded. The Japanese lost 107,000 killed and 7,400 men taken prisoner. It is possible that the Japanese lost another 20,000 dead as a result of American tactics whereby Japanese troops were incinerated where they fought. The Americans also lost 36 ships. 368 ships were also damaged. 763 aircraft were destroyed. The Japanese lost 16 ships sunk and over 4,000 aircraft were lost.

    These casualties -- compressed into four months -- would be unbelievable by today's standards. They were barely supportable, even to the hard men of the Greatest Generation and were a major factor in the subsequent decisions to incinerate the Japanese cities and use the atomic bomb. But no one knew at the time that Okinawa was the latest major land engagement of the Pacific War.

    The major modern innovation of the Arab Way of War has been its radical new conception of defense in depth. The concept made its debut in Algeria; it was subsequently refined in Lebanon, Afghanistan, Checnya and the West Bank. Unlike Ushijima's Shuri Line with its tunnels in rock, the Arab redoubt was founded on establishing an underground of terror in the civilian populace. From the anonymity of crowds, they could emerge to attack the enemy from the rear as the Imperial Japanese Army once had done from tunnels. Faced with superior United States forces, this 21st century War Plan Orange was the natural choice of the Arab strategists. By denying the United States proof of its WMDs and grinding them down through occupation warfare -- the one mode of combat at which they excelled, they had a reasonable hope of holding America until a politician willing to treat with them was elected into office. There was no need for despair because, as James Lileks put it, "hope is on the way" -- a reference to the eventual actions of the antiwar Left. In Iraq the ultimate blitzkrieg force met the ultimate protracted war army and the protracted war army awaited events confidently.

    Shortly after declaring major combat operations over, the US must have realized, like Gen. Simon Bolivar Buckner in Okinawa, that it had come up to the approaches of the Arab Shuri Line. Fortunately, not everything had gone according to the enemy's plan. Like MacArthur in Luzon, they had underestimated the speed of their opponent's advance. They enemy had probably not counted on OIF reaching Baghdad in 3 weeks. Their withdrawal into the redoubt, although substantial was still incomplete. But most importantly, they had not reckoned on the American ability to generate local forces against them, something the Israelis had never achieved. This took the shape of an interim Iraqi government in which Kurds and Shi'ites were major participants. They must have watched with mounting alarm as Iraqi security forces were raised against them. They had forgotten, too, that just as they had developed their tactics in Lebanon, the Americans were able to leverage Israeli tactics that were invented to counter them.

    The battle began to go against them from the start. In essence, Ba'athist-terrorist coalition was unable to inflict the losses necessary to disrupt the organizational learning curve of the American forces. Unlike the conscript Soviet Army, the American Armed Forces were a professional force that retained its core of officers, NCOs and to a large degree, even their enlisted men. Forces were rotated out of Iraq largely intact, where they incorporated lessons learned into the training cycle in CONUS; and relieving forces were improved accordingly. In 1980s, the Al Qaeda and not the Soviet Army had turned Afghanistan into a training ground but in 2003-2004, it was the US Armed Forces and not the terrorists that were coming away with organizational memory. Simply not enough of the enemy survived to pass on their experience and simply too many American lieutenants left Iraq to return as captains. The terrible enemy losses on the battlefield could not be wholly overcome by media plaudits which they received. At least 15,000 enemy cadres have been killed in the 17 months since OIF. Recently, the remains of a French jihadi were identified in Fallujah and his fate is probably a common one. While Afghanistan was once where the young fundamentalist fighter went to get experience, Iraq was now where the fundamentalist fighter went to die.

    One indication of the unfavorable trend faced by enemy forces face was the rapid transformation in US operations. It is interesting to compare Marine preparations to assault Fallujah in April 2004 with those apparently under way today, just months later. The Marine methods of April would have been instantly familiar to any military historian: hammer and anvil, seizure of key terrain; feint and attack. Today, many of the military objectives in the developing siege of the terrorist stronghold are abstract. They consist of developing a network of informers in the city; of setting up a functioning wireless network; of getting close enough for smaller US units to deploy their line-of-sight controlled UAV and UGV units to create a seamless operational and tactical environment to wage "swarm" warfare; of getting artillery and mortar units close enough to play hopscotch over everything the network decides to engage. To the traditional methods of warfare the Americans were adding a whole new plane which only they could inhabit.

    Faced with a force increasingly familiar with Arabia, with deep combat experience, nearly unlimited technical resources and growing lethality, the enemy, like Yamashita in the Cordilleras and Ushijima in Okinawa, can only hope to be saved by the bell. Objectively, there is little chance of that. But as Lileks said: "hope is on the way".

    References are here:
    http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/
     
  4. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    BAGHDAD — Leaders and supporters of the anti-U.S. insurgency say their attacks in recent weeks have a clear objective: The greater the violence, the greater the chances that President Bush will be defeated on Tuesday and the Americans will go home.

    "If the U.S. Army suffered numerous humiliating losses, [Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John] Kerry would emerge as the superman of the American people," said Mohammad Amin Bashar, a leader of the Muslim Scholars Association, a hard-line clerical group that vocally supports the resistance.

    Resistance leader Abu Jalal boasted that the mounting violence had already hurt Mr. Bush's chances. "American elections and Iraq are linked tightly together," he told a Fallujah-based Iraqi reporter. "We've got to work to change the election, and we've done so. With our strikes, we've dragged Bush into the mud."

    Abu Jalal, answering questions submitted to him through the Iraqi journalist, devised a simple formula for how his group's attacks on American soldiers draw votes from Mr. Bush.

    "They say there are 1,100 dead soldiers. That means 1,100 families hold grudges against Bush and hate him. There are 6,000 families whose sons were injured who hate Bush and will not re-elect him."

    Mr. Bashar, a professor at Baghdad's Islamic University, said he and many of those who oppose the U.S. presence in Iraq were rooting for Mr. Kerry.

    But Nazar Judi, a 41-year-old money trader who had his right hand cut off by Saddam Hussein's security forces nine years ago, is squarely in the Bush camp. "I prefer Bush over the other guy because he knows Iraq well," said Mr. Judi, who received a new prosthetic hand from the U.S. Army and was flown to Washington to meet Mr. Bush in person. "I hope he wins his election because he wants to modernize Iraq." A photograph of the American president shaking Mr. Judi's prosthetic hand hangs on the wall of a back room at his Khademiya office.
     
  5. Quercus

    Quercus The Very Last Entwife

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    So what’s the point of this article, kartaron? That the insurgents want Kerry to win because they think he’ll pull troops out of Iraq, or that the insurgents want to make us think that they want Kerry to win so we’ll vote for Bush.

    After all, it was the stupidity of the Bush administration that left hundreds of tons of explosives unguarded for insurgents to steal and use for their own devices. It was the Bush administration that raided Iraq (WRONGLY) with an inadequate number of troops. It was the Bush administration that was unprepared for handling the situation in Iraq after the “Mission (was) Accomplished”.

    Why would they want Kerry to win? Kerry may change the way things are being handled in Iraq, but he’s not likely to withdraw our troops any time soon.

    Don’t worry all you devoted Bush fans….I’m sure that your guy will win even if he’s not the winner. All of his wealthy and powerful friends will see to it. Meanwhile, the children of the poor and middle class will continue to fight and die in Bush’s nasty little war.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2004
  6. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    Quercus - I see that you have bought hook, line and sinker the NY Times report. The sad fact is, it remains to be seen whether those explosives were taken before or after the US invasion. How easy it must be for some Americans to believe everything they hear! Wow, Kerry says over and over how he will fight for the middle class; and that Bush is just this mean "oil man," you really start to believe such political rhetoric :(.
     
  7. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Because Kerry is going to take the first chance to end the war on terror, cut defense spending, neuter the CIA and blame israel for 9/11 just like Kofi Annan wants him to. Look we basically destroyed terrorism in Afghanistan. When has anyone had a success like that against terrorism? We are isolating and destroying the pockets of terrorist (mostly foreign) in Iraq. We have terrorist fighting for survival while we lay back and enjoy a 5% unelployment rate. Kerry wants to wait for another terror attack and then petition the UN for a 'condemnation of terror' to pacify his conscience. That done he will go back to cutting more funding from the CIA for not warning us about the terrorist threat.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2004
  8. Quercus

    Quercus The Very Last Entwife

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    LOTR Fan,
    You make it sound as if I am a gullible little child. I assure that I am not! I haven’t even listened to what Kerry has to say about the explosives issue. What I have listened to are a number of various news reports. Some say that those explosives had been stolen before the U.S. invaded Iraq. Others say the U.S. had already taken control of Iraq when the explosives came up missing. Even you confess that the answer remains to be seen. So why am I such a dupe because I choose to believe that the Bush administration made yet another blunder in their erroneous attack on Iraq?

    Perhaps YOU are the gullible little child! How easy it must be for some Americans to believe everything the Bush camp tells them!



    kartaron,
    Even though I have not heard Kerry suggest that he will do such things, you seem to know an awful lot about what he would do if he became President. Is this your way of announcing to the Fantasy Forum that you’re a Psychic?

    I think that all of us here should vote for Kerry just to see if kartaron is right. :duh:
     
  9. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    Quercus, my main issue with this whole missing explosives issue is that it remains to be seen what exactly the truth is. Just yesterday John Kerry's foreign advisors suggested that he too back off of this issue until we are SURE what has happened. You began the discussion by setting the "barb" against Bush that the NY Times and 60 Min (which has been discovered is less than credible - can anyone say Microsoft Word!) began; why just today there is report that Russian soldiers may have moved these explosives BEFORE our entrance into Syria. Is everything George Bush's fault? John Kerry has blamed everything from loss of jobs to the lack of flu shots on our great President. Which by the way in the latter case our President EXPANDED funding almost double for the flu vaccine, it was an English pharmaceutical company that blew it! It is time to sit back and really evaluate the claims that JK is making - he will say ANYTHING to get elected! However, his senate record speaks for itself - he has not made any real lasting acheivements. His veteran status is valuable with some crowds and his anti-war status with others - the MAN CAN NOT BE TRUSTED!
     
  10. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Kerry will concede around 1pm ET. Bush wins, Senate minority leader Daschle (democrat) gets evicted, Republicans gain seats in the House and Senate. A complete Republican victory.
     
  11. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    This is a great day to be an American!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    President Bush wins with the largest overall voting ever over 58 million votes (breaking the previous record of Reagan), and he is the first president to win the office since 1988 to also win the popular vote - something that not even Clinton did!
     
  12. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    It does feel good to be an American today, doesn't it? A resounding victory!
     
  13. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    I wanted to make an observation, and here seems the best place, that the western hemisphere's worst dictator, Fidel Castro, and the Middle East's most pacified terrorist, Yassir Arafat, are in failing health and hopefully dying. Having a strong pro-freedom president will help these peoples realize freedom when their opressors pass on.
     
  14. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    I've got a question.

    What determines how many electoral votes a state gets? Obviously population probably has something to do with it, but is there anything more to it? Question that popped into my head as I was watching CNN last night ;)
     
  15. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    Supposedly the popular vote of the state should decide where the electoral votes go...but the electoral college can vote differently if they really feel the need to (See election 2000- Florida).
     
  16. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    The electoral college votes are based on the number of Representatives that each particular state has.
     
  17. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    So, I am assuming it stays consistant from election to election, right?
     
  18. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    Yes, if by that you mean the number of votes that each state has.
     
  19. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Actually it is completely based on population compared to the overall population of the country. If a state's population stays the same but the population of the country goes up enough, that state will lose an elector. Or vice versa. We do surveys every decade to keep the numbers accurate.

    Like Arwen said, the electors can vote differently but it is extremely rare and didnt happen in Florida. Some states have penalties for unfaithful electors but no state would invalidate the choice of the elector.
     
  20. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    Actually, the number of electors is the same as the number of members of the House of Representatives and members of the Senate a state has. Oklahoma for example has two Senators, and five Representatives, thus our 7 electoral votes. I personally think the Electoral College is fascinating... and some people want to get rid of it.