President Bush

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Harrison, Jan 27, 2004.

  1. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    We are not talking about 1 person. As 1 of the world powers we need to be concious of what our allies, especially, think of us. Having every country pissed at us does not bode well for us. We need to work together..not against each other.
     
  2. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    Even though we aren't talking about the same person, the principle still applies. And I think we are all very conscious of what they think of us. Now, by allies we are talking about France and Germany here. Everyone else is pretty much with us. I personally don't care to deal with "allies" who had deals with and were arming Saddam. I don't care to deal with a group as corrupt as the UN.
     
  3. CB Swords

    CB Swords Forum Administrator

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    Just a couple things.

    I haven't read this whole thread, but I'm sure someone has brought these things up at one point, and I want to tell you what I think. Basically I think many people have been unfair to Bush in placing blame.

    1. Iraq = Oil
    No blood for oil. The only reason we're in Iraq is for oil, etc etc. I hear this repeated all the time. Just because Iraq has oil doesn't mean that that is why we're there. I think most people with this point of view never even bothered to look up US oil imports. Well, lets all have a good look:

    http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/rankings/crudebycountry.htm

    You can look at charts from previous years and find much the same thing.

    So why do we get so much Oil from Canada? Venezuela? Mexico? Etc. Plus the US produces alot of it's own oil. Well, geography matters, its cheaper and closer. Before the Iraq war started oil prices went up and people of course incorrectly attributed it Iraq. Venezuela was having serious civil unrest at the time and it was a very cold winter which caused home heating oil demand to increase. Even the west coast of Africa or Europe is going to be closer than the middle east. The middle east is far more important a source of oil to that part of the world than to our part of the world. However since the world does have a global supply shortages in one area can cause price increases in another.

    Also, you'll notice (and you'll see if you look back in recent years) that we already get Iraqi oil. If anything the war slowed Iraqi oil production (and of course increased demand, all those tanks need gas after all). So why go to war for something we already have?

    But we're not the only people who get Iraqi oil. Both France and Russia (against the war) had negotiated large oil deals with Saddam. In fact France pushed twice in the 90's for the UN to remove the sanctions on Iraq and allow them to sell more oil. In both cases the US and UK were against it. Now which country wants Iraqi oil? People seem to gloss over that fact.

    Now, what about Nigeria? Remember last year, all the problems they were having? People begging the US to intervene. Of course liberals were spewing propoganda here about how if Nigeria had oil we'd be there in a heartbeat. People like Michael Moore or Al Sharpton (who also said African Americans were disenfranchised in Florida in 2000 when in fact they had a higher turnout than whites and more whites were accidentially turned away than blacks, all of which is a matter of public record). Well look at the chart, Nigeria is a larger supplier of oil to the US than Iraq.


    2. WMD

    So they didn't find anything other than a few empty cannisters of ricin etc. So what? Russia was against the war and yet Valdimir Putin (the Russian president) admitted to supplying the US with intelligence that Al Qaeda was meeting with Iraqi officials. Do I think there was a vast conspiracy to dupe the American people? Of course not. I think they were just wrong. I think they took their best guess.

    Saddam has used chemical weapons in the past on his own people. What he did was so horrendous that Human Rights Watch, a very liberal group, asked the US to invade Iraq and oust him in the 80s. You can read about it here: http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/

    If we knew exactly where everything was we could have sent in cruise missles and be done with it. I think that they simply did not know where everything was. I think they made their best guess, and I'm glad they did it.

    Yes, many people have died, but what would have happened if they were wrong?

    Hindsight is 20/20, we all know that, but try to put yourself in Bush's shoes. You're told Saddam may be working with Al Qaeda, a group who has just killed over 2000 Americans. You're told intelligence shows Saddam probably has WMDs. You know Saddam is crazy enough to use them. Can you take the risk to let them go? One guy, just one guy, with one suitcase in New York could kill millions of people.

    You hear WMD tossed about in the news like its no big deal. It stands for Weapons of Mass Destruction. These are tools that are small enough to be concealed, yet powerful enough to destroy an entire city.

    If Bill Clinton (and no I don't blame him either for the same reasons people shouldn't blame Bush) had invaded Afganistan after the Al Qaeda bombings of the Kenyan and Tanzanian US embassies we may have never had 9/11, the US would likely have not had a recession, and thousands of people would still be alive. He didn't.

    So, pretend Saddam did have WMD, and we didn't invade, and in 2 years New York no longer exists. Thats a risk I wouldn't want to take, would you?

    Lets also remember that John Kerry is on the Senate Intelligence committee and that he sees the same intelligence briefings as Bush. He has repeatedly said that he would have made the same decision, that even if he had known they did not have WMD he would have still gone in. Of course I'm sure he's said the opposite at one point too but thats another issue.

    3. The Economy

    Lets blame the economy on the right people. Enron, Worldcom, and Osama. Oh, and crazy venture capitalists investing in dumb net companies. The stock market was already going down with Bush took office due to the dotcom bubble bursting. 9/11 really really hurt the airlines and insurance companies. All those accounting scandals just added insult to injury. That is what really hurt the economy.

    Then we had the tax cuts and we had the largest single quarter growth in our GDP in 20 years. The economy is back on track now, and sure it'll take time to recover completely, but the recovery has started

    4. In general....

    I'm generally a moderate conservative. I am pro fiscal responsility, I favor smaller government, lower taxes, and a free market. I do side with Democrats on some issues, like stem cell research or the environment (still I take a practical rather than idealistic approach to the environment).

    There are some democrats I like, but I like nothing about Kerry, and I dislike John Edwards. I think legal reform, especially in the area of medical malpractice, is one of the major problems with this country. The loser-pays systems in the UK and elsewhere are much better. Of course john Edwards made $50 million chasing ambulances so I don't think that will be fixed under his watch.

    What I don't like about Bush is the spending. He knows how to promote a fee market, and he knows how to cut taxes, but he needs to cut spending too. Still though he spends less than Kerry wants to.

    In general my problem with Democrats is that they do alot of pandering and they seem to work on demonizing republicans. All Republicans are racists or elitists, etc etc. Thats their game plan, make people think republicans are evil. The fact is more republicans voted for the Equal Rights Act than Democrats, and if you want to go way back during the civil war the North was mostly Republican and the south Democrats.

    I'm really a John McCain fan, I hope he runs in 2008.

    For those of you who vote...

    Don't let hollywood make your decisions for you. Do your own research. People like Michael Moore are just spreading propoganda, even many Democrats dislike him. A newspaper in Ohio sued him for digitally altering their newspaper for use in his movie. Don't let him make your decision for you. Don't let me, do your own research.
     
  4. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    I will recommend the following with the UTMOST WARNING: this is a horrific and gruesome DVD, but well worth viewing when we consider what we are fighting for in Iraq. The title is BURIED IN THE SAND http://www.buriedinthesand.com/. I could barely watch, in fact I had to fast forward a number of parts. This is NOT a DVD for the weak stomached, but when you witness first-hand the attrocities of Saddam's Iraq, you will likely change your view of the war.

    Our President is a man of courage and resolve, who has exemplified true leadership. I must add that also on the DVD are plenty of quotes from the Democratic heroes (Clintons, Kerry, Kennedy, Graham, Gore) that clearly state that we all thought there were WMDs in Iraq - do not let a fish from Mass tell you different.
     
  5. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    I rewound the tape and watched that part again. You're right. Kerry left out his wife and children in that question and went straight to talking about his mother. Weird...
     
  6. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Yes, for we all know that back in High School it isn't about being who you really are, it's the impression you put on people...

    We could go back to the days of Jimmy Carter when the rest of the world pushed us around. Strange that he is a world wide recognized Nobel Prize winner when most Americans are still trying to wash the bad taste out of their mouths from that administration. Bush will always refuse to give in to worldwide pressure when we act in our own interests.

    funny that Kerry brought up Ronald Reagan as a great president (sure as hell voted against almost everything he wanted to do to combat the soviets in the cold war). Kerry is no reagan, he is in fact a polar opposite. Reagan acted in our interests in our arms race against the USSR. The world thought he would bring about WWIII (much as people are claiming Bush is). However, one day they started "dancing on the Berlin wall", and then it seemed all the decisions that pissed off the rest of the world worked out for the better. Kerry would put together a "global test" as he tried to back away from in the third debate, but I am afraid a bit too much of your foreigner coddling showed through on that one Sen. Kerry.

    Countries are not pissed at Bush, people are. Canadian newspapers (Toronto Star if I'm not mistaked, the editor in chief was on Bill O'Reilly) are still claiming that in recounts Gore won the last election. Europe has had a strange and vast silence about France and Germanies illegal arms deals with Iraq, and the 1.78 billion dollars French politicians and business men got from Saddma to oppose an Iraq war. My God, the implications on the only countries not supporting us in Iraq because of blood money from Saddam would be enough to shatter the U.N. to the ground, but they are shutting up about it, at least until the election here is over.

    A corrupt U.N. is only good news for Bush, it explains the massive dissent in those three countries even though the U.N. themselves were certain Iraq had WMD's. Fact is American media, even with its biases, still provides the most truthful presentation out there. (And I am saying this even with the Dan Rather debacle. I still feel the links between the source of the forged documents and DNC chairman terry McAuliffe are too blazingly important to ignore...)

    In this last debate Kerry seemed to be more worried about terrorists getting assault weapons in the US than he is about them getting their hands on WMD's. Talk about mixed priorities.
     
  7. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    I really don't see a problem with that. So his mother played an important role in his life. Why should that be an issue?
     
  8. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    It's not an issue, but it is weird he spent no time talking about his wife and children when the question was about women in his life. Doesn't his wife play an important role in how he lives?
     
  9. Dark Lord Sauron

    Dark Lord Sauron Lord of Middle Earth

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    Our "allies" in the UN do not do an awful lot. With reguards to Iraq, their solution was "sanction them to death", of course, they only actually hurt the people. They would never do anything against the US being as around 90% of "their" troops are our soldiers. Being able to stand up for what is right in the face of opposition is the true definition of courage. I believe Bush exibits this. Many people believe the US should "walk on eggshells" and be petrified of taking a stand for fear of offending someone. If everyone exibited that atitude ,this country would get nowhere. Never let someone else's opinion impede your own judgement.
     
  10. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    Back to the discussion of Kerry's wife - she is not well-liked by the American voter (no wonder!); so in a clever Kerry format, he quickly changed the focus to his mother.

    "Shove it!!!!!!" - does that ring a bell???
     
  11. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Yes, she has said some strange stuuf, like that all Americans will have full health coverage on day one when Kerry takes office.

    So... I guess no legislation is needed then?
     
  12. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    Justice and others,

    Sorry about just jumping in to this discussion (my first post) I didn't mean to interrupt your ongoing dialogue. But this of course is the most important thread on this entire site - the future of the greatest nation on God's green earth. BTW I am not trying to be arrogant, but America must be great and that includes our morality and leadership.

    If anyone has the chance get a copy of that DVD I recommended: Buried in the Sand: The Deception of America

    OR:

    Ferhenhype 911 you can get this here: http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?page=search&keyword=ferenhype+911

    Thanks for reading!
     
  13. Anduril

    Anduril Flame of the West

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  14. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    Great link!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Especially true to not forget that Hollywood has become the voice of our land, what a disaster! Babs and the Dixie Chicks the philosophers and sages of our land, what's next?

    Back to the topic, I think we need to remember the point that our President has made that when John Kerry mentions that we are "alone" in this war, he is only further alienating us from the rest of the world! Apparently for Kerry, unless it is Germany or France, there is no alliance!
     
  15. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    And dont forget the other nations like the japanese (who dont have a standing army as I remember) are helping reconstruct Iraq and are suffering the attacks like everyone else. Even if they dont have military forces in the country they are still helping.

    I have a real problem with the way Bush has refused to veto any spending bills. His interest in throwing money at any problem and passing any bill annoys me to the point of voting for another candidate. He even has the gall to call himself a fiscal conservative. He might be when compared to Kerry but that isnt enough. If almost any other democrat were running, or the race were wider apart he wouldnt have a chance for my vote. Just like I didnt vote for him in 2000 when he promised to pass the prescription drug plan. Now he calls Kerry an extreme liberal for proposing a national health care plan. If the democrat candidate was Lieberman or some other moderate democrat he would have been able to call Bush on his BS.
     
  16. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    I can see your point, I just think that it was very meaningful of him to mention his mother and I dislike others using it as a negative aspect of the debate.

    Or Canada. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2004
  17. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    It is quite a shameful thing for Kerry to treat our allies in such a way - if he is elected he will have a lot of restoration to do, and I for one don't think the international community will listen to him. Of course that is a big "IF" and I certainly don't think such will happen!
     
  18. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    You're right LOTR Fan. The rest of the world isn't going to listen to Kerry. He claims that he's going to get more troops from "other countries" (code words for France and Germany) in Iraq. Yet the leaders of France and Germany have already said that even if Kerry is elected, they're not going to send it troops. And yet Kerry still continues to make this claim. I wish some reporter would call him on this one and make him answer to it.
     
  19. LOTR Fan

    LOTR Fan Universals v. Particulars

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    The fact is, Kerry will say ANYTHING to get elected - he was pro invasion before we did not find WMDs and of course riding the coattails of Dean anti once he got the lead, he makes me sick!
     
  20. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Well I listened to Walton and johnson this morning, and they're always right, and they played this segment that was called "Kerry is for all of america". And well it was some guy that said "If you were against the war in Iraq Kerry is the right president for you" And then it played an audio clip of Kerry saying "I think the president went to the wrong war at the wrong time, etc." And the the guy said "If you are for the war in Iraq, Kerry is also for you", this was followed by another audio of Kerry saying "I support the president 100% in going to Iraq beause I think that Saddam needed to be taken out of power." And there were many a quote from Kerry and I loved the fact that they pretty much showed most of his "flip-flopping" issues. Now I am not Bush lover but if I had to choose between him and Kerry I would choose Bush. Just my opinion and I am glad that I won't have to vote this coming election.