President Bush

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Harrison, Jan 27, 2004.

  1. LadyoftheGoldenWood

    LadyoftheGoldenWood Ancient One

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    all i can say is dan! well arwen I said this be for when we where talking about why you Liked Kerry and I was kinda askoing you why so here it is....

    Originally Posted by LadyoftheGoldenWood
    ya I think Bush did do some thing that he should not have done but every time I heard Kerry talk for three month when I did have TV i heard him say one thing and then tern right a round and say just the opposite of what he had just said and i am not talking about the war just other little things he said he would do and then stood there and said he would not do! why dose he do that I have heard it more then once!?!??!!?!?!?
     
  2. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    Well I didn't see him do that, and I'm not John Kerry...and my psychic connection isn't working today so I don't have an answer for you.
     
  3. LadyoftheGoldenWood

    LadyoftheGoldenWood Ancient One

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    lol that was good miss psychic!
     
  4. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    They claimed to be undecided anyway. It doesnt matter. The post debate polls are the same as the pre debate polls. Positive for Bush.

    I have always defended Bush as a better of two (or three counting Gore) undesirable candidates. As for refuting arguments, all we get are 'Bush lies', 'Bush kills Iraqi babies' and the ever popular 'Bush is Hitler'. Quercus posted some valid points a while back. Some of which I agreed with either in but my conclusion was that his faults arent bad enough for me to support Kerry for Pres. (or support the libertarian candidate which is almost the same thing). The one major positive for Bush is tha fact that he will pursue Al-Qaeda and contributers of global Terrorism. Kerry, despite what he says, obviously will not unless the paranoid Spanish and the isolationist French want to help. I dont think it helps his appeal for new allies to mock the current allies. It certainly doesnt help the current allies or the present campaigns. I think that Kerry will say ANYTHING, no matter how true it is, in order to get elected. Watch for 'Bush is a Terrorist' coming soon from a Kerry ad.

    Oh and watch somebody cherry pick the Kerry comments from my reply and repost them saying 'look all he has is more Kerry bashing!'
     
  5. Ranger_of_Gondor

    Ranger_of_Gondor Gondorian Defender

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    You want to hear a good thing about Kerry? He has a brain inside that head of his. But I will agree with you on one thing Justice, that it would of been much better if it were actually a debate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2004
  6. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    LMAO...that was great. And oh so true ;)
     
  7. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    Most of the stats on the T.V. I have viewed (been watching ABC, CBS, and CNN) indicate that in general, most people's opinion of Kerry increased for the positive rather than decreased compared to before the debate. Not that great for Bush.
     
  8. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    The reason there are not many pro-Kerry comments in this thread is because it is the 'President Bush' thread.

    Here is the situation as I see it here in small town ohio.

    Under Bill Clinton's admiistration I went from being unemployed, and living in a 1977 LTD, to being the sole supporter of a family of 5. We now live in the upper middle class range for our area.

    Since the Bush administration took over I have seen notably smaller wage increases in my job, and an exceptionally flat stock market. But that is just a drop in the bucket compared to what others in the area are feeling. I'm lucky enough to be employed by a very diverse company who has managed to grow when everyone else is loosing buisness. Withing a fifty mile radius of my house there have been more plant closings than I can count on both of my hands, all in the past four years. Many of these plants were/are large corporations. ICM (A division of Chrystler, Huffy, New Idea, Phillips, Fruefauf, and the list keeps going on). The number of jobs this country has lost over the last four years is astounding, and I don't see where our president is doing anything to help it out. What do I care if I get an $500 bonus from the government when I won't have my job when I go into work tommorrow.

    The foreign relations peice of this presidence is too horrific for me to go into in the 25 minutes I have on my lunch hour so I'll just leave it at that for now. But I will say that whatever I may think about Irag, Afganistan, North Korea, could be debatable, but in no way will I vote for a man who sits by and watches my job get moved to India.
     
  9. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    I made fairly consistant raises all through the clinton administration. When Bush came into office I started working two jobs, making roughly twice what I was making the year before. More money than I had ever made. Last year I chose 1 job over the other and I make now, as much as I made working the two together, although for technical reasons I pay less in taxes. However, I dont credit either president or Alan Greenspan either. My pay is determined by the monetary value of the quality of my work and my technical experience. If your work is graded other than that you should QUIT and find someone who will pay you market value for your services. It may be possible that the value of your skills (whether by market or by quality) have diminished. You cant blame that on Bush either.

    As for businesses moving to Mexico / India: Maybe you should question a tax system that takes half of what you make from the business that hires you.No not the taxes that are withdrawn from your check, thats only about a third. Im talking about the 'business tax'. That encourages a business to hire workers in a country that has a more business friendly tax system. You cant have it both ways. Bush tried to cut that tax (he actually might have cut it marginally) but the dems howled that 'big businesses are getting a handout' whenever he mentioned it.

    In all reality I dont see how anyone thinks we can compete in certain markets. I mean we have a what $5.15 minimum wage? So at material costs, and labor (probably a few per hour) a blanket is something like a few bucks, add wholsale and retail and it gets to $40 real fast and thats with no licensing costs, no fancy packaging. However in China, workers can work as cheap as pennies. Its not that bad because it only costs pennies to live there. Anyway, they can make ten thousand for the cost of one made here. They ship em over here and wholsale and retail mark them up to something close to $5.00. Consumers see the two side by side, dont see a difference and go cheap. Its the free market at work. I dont think we can possibly compete here. One, we cant legally hire anyone below 5.15 per hour. Second, even if the law were reversed very few people would work that cheap because it doesnt support any of the nicities of American Life.

    It should be noted that an exception to this rule is agriculture. If agriculture were forced to hire only minimum wage employees, oranges would cost $75 each. Government knows that the consumers would not accept groceries that expensive so they turn a blind eye to the illegal immigrant issue and leave the borders open. Now the borders have been open so long and the country has such a large number of illegal immigrants, it may be impossible to close. California has made it illegal to arrest or detain anyone because of immigration status. They are desperate. Bush isnt even on the conservative side on this. He just answers truthfully and gets nailed for it.
     
  10. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    Yeah, um, Turin could you name some policies or something that Bush proposed and put in place that you believe caused these job losses and plant closings? I'd just like to know. I can't think of any. If anything, Bush is trying to help business by cutting taxes but everytime he does the Democrats, like kartaron said, claim he's just giving big business a break.
     
  11. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    No, I can't name specific policies that he has made that have jeaprodized the American jobs. What I can tell you is that if you look at the big picture, labor rates are only a portion of the expense in making a product. An example I recently encountered through my job was a European competitor who was bidding on a Volvo package that my company ended up winning. This company intended to build a plant in Mexico to take advantage of the lower cost of labor. After all was said and done they were not able to undercut us due in part to the various import taxes and transportation costs. Unfortunately the same tax rates do not apply to all foreign nations, this allows coutries like China, who pay workers pennies an hour to dominate the market.

    As far as the tax cuts for buisinesses go, it is a double edged sword. Can you show me a specific instance where there was a significant across the board tax break for large companies keeping their manufacturing operations in the US? More likely it's based on profitability, wich leads down the path of shipping out jobs.

    You'll have to forgive me if my numbers are not exact here (it's been a while since my economics class :rolleyes: ) In the fifties and sixties roughly thirty percent of this nation was employed in a manufacturing environment. Today it is less than 10%, more and more of the jobs are becoming service related. At some point in time we will no longer need people to work at Super Wal Mart or McDonalds, if we continue to lose the jobs that make this country strong we will eventually collapse economically.

    The situation we live in is this, we (American Industry) go overseas and trail less economically developed countries to do things like high volume machining, processing steel, and building digital circuits. As a result, these jobs are eventually lost in our economy and moved to the country that we just trained to do it.

    I guess my point is that though Bush might not have passed laws to promote the loss of jobs (again I can't speak to that point) I haven't seen any real world proof that he has done much to prevent the loss. The examples I mentioned above are proof of this. These companies chose to move their operations, and there is little to discourage them from doing so. While I will concede to the fact that the President - any President is not the only person responsible for this, he can and should have a voice in the matter. I find it hard to support questionable foreign relations activities that cost us, the taxpayers, billions of dollars, when the reality is that I may not be able to support my family tommorrow, because industry continues to stream out of this country at an alarming rate.
     
  12. Ranger_of_Gondor

    Ranger_of_Gondor Gondorian Defender

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    Recent poll of whom Americans would vote for:
    John Kerry 47%
    George Bush 45%
    Hooray!

    Oh and guess what? Unless I heard the news wrong George Bush will raise the taxes if he wins. Hooray.
     
  13. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    Don't take that for granted. I'm sure there are some polls that are saying Bush is ahead. The race is to close to call for anyone to be named a clear cut winner until November.
     
  14. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    Yea, I don't put a whole lot of faith in those things unless they show a landslide gap.
     
  15. Khamul

    Khamul Roaming

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  16. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    What poll was this? Bush has had nearly a double digit lead over Kerry for the longest time.

    And I never heard anything about Bush raising taxes. Kerry however has pretty much made it his platform.

     
  17. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    I just heard a 51-46 poll with bush in the lead

    This is getting tiring. The dems have said Bush will:

    1) restart the draft
    2) raise taxes
    3) make abortion illegal, or rape legal
    4) burn black churches
    5) fire a lot of the cabinet
    6) build an oil pipeline in Iraq
    7) take posession of the oil in Iraq.
    8) Support lynchngs
    9) Find out what you check out of the library.

    and thats just off the top of my head. None of it has happened or will happen. Kerry however want to raise taxes and implement the draft. The tax statement is on his website. He removed the draft statement but you can find mirrors on the net.
     
  18. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    Though some of those are obviously obsurd, others I don't find entirely unlikely.
     
  19. Ranger_of_Gondor

    Ranger_of_Gondor Gondorian Defender

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    This poll was on the news. But like guys are saying you can't predict anything with this election.
     
  20. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Not everyone finds them ubsurd. Cameron Diaz was on Oprah and she alluded to the allegation that Bush wants to make rape legal by banning abortion. And millions of housewives watch that show every day. Sheesh, with this BS floating around no wonder some people are idiotic enough to compare Bush to Hitler or to Bin Laden.