Political Correctness and Feminism. Is it progress?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Anakin, Jun 29, 2018.

  1. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    I’ve seen a debate on this subject. I don’t remember all the ones involved. One was Stephen Fry, who I’m a big fan of and he’s against Political Correctness and he makes some good points. Personally I don’t want to be political correct. I want to be a decent human being. If I don’t say the ‘n’ word, I don’t say it because it’s not considered political correct. I just think it’s morally wrong. I should say that this debate is also about feminism, because political correctness and feminism or some kind of feminism lead to the same thing and that is censorship, which I’m against to a point. Both subjects go hand in hand. I’ve seen this in all kinds of artwork, mostly in games actually. Again this is mostly about feminism, but there are large arguments of how women are sexualised in games. Fair enough there are some huge exaggerations like Bayonetta, but still if people like this why censor it? Bayonetta was created by a woman and many female gamers like her. A lot of women like to look sexy in games, so why deny them that in games like Mass Effect Andromeda. Take the female lead, Sara Ryder, who in my opinion looks rather mediocre compared to other female leads. And the reason is because they want to avoid backlash of sexualising women.

    Another game I’d like to bring up is Assassin’s Creed Origins which had a history tour in it, which was made for schools. Now I can understand that they want to censor nude statues. But at one point you saw a class of children listening to their teacher. Now Ubisoft changed it to a mixed class of boys and girls, while this is historically incorrect. Boys and girls were taught separately, but they changed it because it might come off as “sexist”. Yes, maybe it is, but that’s what it was like in those times, so why hide it? Another issue with feminism is that I notice more dividing between women and men. Some men are afraid to even hold open a door for a woman because it’s seen as sexist, while personally I think it’s just polite to do, being a gentlemen. It also matters who gets to the door first. Should I feel offended if Padme would hold the door open for me? There’s also signs that because of feminism some men are more afraid to approach women. So how our genders are now more divided I wouldn’t also see as progress. I’m all for equality and it should be that way, but what of these costs?
     
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  2. Padmé

    Padmé King in the North & King Anakin's Wench

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    Well we've spoken about this often. I don't call myself a Feminist mainly because many that I have spoke to tend to be man haters, which I'm not for whatsoever. Also the idea that to exist in a man's world we need to act more aggressive and pushy like men.... Em, isn't that the very opposite of Feminism? So I prefer to say I believe in equality. End of. I don't think men or women are any better than one another, same with race, nationality, sexual orientation etc etc, we're all the same. And I don't think anyone should be judged for how they want to live their lives. If a woman wishes to be a mother and housewife, that's nothing to be ashamed of, same if she wants to have a career. People should not be shamed for life choices like these but it happens only too often.

    And political correctness, well we could go on for days about that but ultimately it comes down to offending people. But there's those who are offended over nothing, and those who are hurt because they have been specifically targeted and verbally attacked. A big difference. It's all about intention. If you have gone out of your way to be nasty to another person, then naturally that behaviour should be shot down. Nothing to do with political correctness, it's just about being called out for being an a$$hole. But you have incidents of people being offended over terms like 'manhole cover', saying it's a 'personhole cover' and so on... Come on.... Actually, there's someone else who has said it far better than I ever will, so here he is:
     
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  3. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus King Anakin's Royal Advisor, Constantly Around :D

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    I think there's something of a fuzzy line between "old feminism" and "new" or "radical" feminism. I agree with the "old feminism", that is, that women should have the right to vote, the right to work, the right to dress as they please within the limits of public decency, the right to an education, the right to prove themselves capable of whatever it is they wish to do.

    That's in strong contrast to the sort of entitlement some people have these days, where a right to work becomes "I deserve to have this job no matter how physically or mentally or emotionally unqualified I am at it". The enemy on the battlefield doesn't care what gender you are - if you can shoot straight and carry ALL your equipment and keep up with the rest of the squad, more power to you, but if you can't, stay home in the van and let faster, stronger, and more qualified people do the job rather than risking the lives of everyone around you just to "prove" something to the world.

    The same sort of concept goes for what people call "political correctness" these days. There's requesting politeness and general decency, and then there's outright censorship and thought policing. I believe everyone should be respected until they prove themselves unworthy of that respect, and even then, we should not stoop to their level. It's just plain rude and immature to namecall and demean, especially on something as petty as looks. Are there differences in abilities and talents? Yes, I think there most likely are, and some are cultural, and some may be genetic. But they're still a human being. If "right makes right", most people currently alive should by all rights be dead, what with technology being what it is these days. No, regardless of talent, regardless of bloodline or gender or culture, we should maintain respect and decency towards one another, and that starts with avoiding derogatory language like the N word or half the words men use to describe women, most of them sexual or animalistic. The English world's fascination with sexual and scatalogical terminology should stop at the front door.

    On the other hand, there is such a thing as "too much", when every single action and word become a perceived slight. Personally, I have no problem being called "Seaman Magus", even though the title contains the word "man" in it. I have no problem calling the round metal cover a "manhole" cover, or one who enforces the law a "policeman". It's a title, and in context, the word "man" is supposed to represent all humankind, or "mankind", as it were. The word Oriental shouldn't be considered taboo either - Westerners are pretty much the only ones offended by it, and us East Asians, or Orientals, aren't offended by it at all - it comes from the Latin word for East, after all. And no, not every person of color from the continent of Africa wants to be called "African American", particularly if they're not American in the first place, or African, for that matter. I'm pretty sure a lot of Native Americans don't mind being called "American Indian" either. It was a big misunderstanding on Columbus's part, not a second N word.

    Also, at most I'm going to use four pronouns. He, She, They, and if I actually feel like it, Xe. I tend to avoid the last one. Sue me if "them" is meant to be plural, I'll use it as gender neutral singular anyways. I'm not going to dive into the whole "52 genders" thing, there's politeness, and then there's taking things way, way too far. I don't care if you personally identify as an apache attack helicopter. It doesn't change the fact that both you and I are sentient beings trying to have a polite conversation, and I'm not going to let this devolve into tone arguments just to get across to you that I'd like an egg mcmuffin with cheese.

    I don't care whether you're male or female, walking around with your shirt off in public isn't a thing right now, any more than walking around with nothing on at all, and you'd best believe that I'll be calling the police for public indecency if it's explicitly written into law. And no, you can't just show up to formal events dressed like that, there's a dress code, and attending said formal event is a privilege, not a right. It's not open to the general public, and I'm not discriminating based on anything. I'll make everyone wear suits across the board if I have to in order to get you to come decently dressed, white shirt, black tie, black trousers and black jacket, black socks and shoes, no excessively bulky piercings or hairdos. I'll make everyone come bald too if that's what it takes.

    Biological differences are a thing. That's why there's an age limit for voting and driving a vehicle. That's why only half of us can actually give birth, with all the downsides. If you want to try giving birth and have all the downsides, be my freaking guest, I guarantee you'll change your mind in T-minus a month. That comes with certain responsibilities and practical concerns which don't pertain to those who aren't saddled with said biological downsides, and I'm sorry, but honestly, I don't care that you want the benefits without the downsides, you're just plain not experiencing the downsides, and so you don't need the "benefits", as you call them. Life's not fair, you say? Hey, guess what, there's actually these nice doctors out there that have clinics where you can try experiencing what the downsides are like, go check it out sometime. Then come talk to me about what's fair.
     
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  4. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I think most people, esp the majority in a lot of generations growing up now, are far more of a mindset toward equality than many realise. I think there is a big lag effect going on where there are still a lot of positions with men in power; but many of those men rose to those positions a long time ago and are holding onto them. Ergo no one else can rise to them until that generation moves on.

    So it wouldn't shock me if in another 10 or 20 years we see a lot more high profile women in many sectors who have risen up through their own merits.


    If anything the current wave of activist feminism is indeed less about equality and more about superiority; and its pleasing to my eye that many sensible men and women see it for what it is. The downside is that its found a good calling in social media and will continue to exploit it until society matures to better contend with dealing with social media outbursts; esp since many are very emotional spur of the moment things that happen and end, sometimes on the same day or within a few days. Ergo that they are not long-lasting and often don't stand up to actual investigation into the situation.




    There is always backlash to change, some is justified and some is not; its about finding a happy middle ground between the two. Society is still hammering out the middleground so we can expect up and downs to keep happening.
     
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  5. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    I think political correctness, the rewriting history & judging historical figures by todays standards & identity politics is ripping society apart not bringing us together or improving anything for anyone. What's that Martin Luther King quote?..."I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." How he must be spinning in his grave, identity politics does the polar opposite.

    I believe in equality of opportunity for everyone be they male/female, black/white or gay/straight and in a society based on meritocracy. Not all individuals are equal ~ harsh but the truth. I don't believe in positive discrimination or quotas to achieve a particular PC outcome. I have no issue with the idea of blind applications so that sex/race etc are not factors in determining someones suitability for a role and to stamp out discrimination where it's found.

    I also believe in an absolute right of freedom of speech (except for an incitement to commit violence or act of terrorism).. almost every right of value has been brought about by saying things that others may/have found offensive. Now this is defined as 'hate speech' and you can be imprisoned for it. The belief that university students need safe spaces or have to de-platform controversial speakers would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. The brightest young adults need protection from 'mean thoughts' or any thoughts which are outside 'group think norms'.

    Being a white male I've apparently enjoyed 'white privilege' &/or 'male privilege' and am the devil incarnate. I haven't and am not!

    ... you may have noticed PC-ism gets right up my nose.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
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  6. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Hell Woman

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    I'm strongly in favor of political correctness and 3rd wave onward feminism. I think the two get strawmanned by media (like the manhole cover example???) that never lets marginalized people speak for themselves beyond plucking sound bites when we are justifiably angry and portraying us as "over emotional" hellions while the world should roll over. The issue never becomes about what we are upset about, but that we are too stupid to defend ourselves, infantalizing us.

    I don't think meritocracies are possible. Innately our society has biases, everyone has them. Everything we make has biases to our understanding and predisposition, even computer programs.

    As far as gender goes with WM bringing it up, my opinion is divergent from queer theory (gender is fake, gender is social, identity is abiological, labels are bad/unnecessary). I think it is harmful most leftist thinking writes off all science as bloodworship. I still think there are virtually infinite genders or identities, and more of the time people are going to be right about themselves considering their instinct, and them understanding their own life experience. The humanities and sciences are both extremely important and could learn quite a bit if they intermingled more. I think the humanities ride the absolute claim to understanding a little too high and dividing but are still a minority in thought against greater and even more far from point conservatism in public operation and understanding. I think people misunderstand that as academia being only spoiled college brats, when even most institutions are centrist and barely cede ground beyond symbolic acts.

    Lots of feminist thinking can be shallow or self-fire though. In example, "male-gaze" stuff particularly sucks if you are trans or non-binary trying to sort yourself out while being made guilty for it. There are right-wing feminists, there are trans-exclusionary feminists, there are left-wing trans-exclusionary feminists, but again bias in the media will only present feminism to you as a monolith of ideals, but usually liberal and not even leftist.