Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Kakashi, Feb 28, 2011.
i think that this situation will never end...
techniquely it is what i discribed by saying "argue"- i have an answer for your question- but i have to rethink about it and then ill answer
Please do, I'm genuinely interested to hear from an Israeli who is living in this situation we all hear about. Your side of the story will be very much welcomed.
lets start from the basics.
we were here first.
yes, i know, its chlidish but much long before muhammad was a pice of paper in the kotel
(don't understand? too bad)
there was a jewish kingdon in israel, all of israel (well, techniqely is streched far more to the north- but conquering lebanon is syria is not the point ) seven the minimalist who suspect king david and king shlomo do agree that we did rule here, even if an hundered years later.
we never wanted to go away, the roman exiled us from israel and now we came back hone, great right?
but when we came back there were new inhabitants in israel, not fun, but we actualy tried to settele wuth them and mostly everything was fine, except from massacres here and there- and belive me- we were not the killers.
so what went wrong- well two things- first' the arab leader- mostly religous who angried the simple farmers and the english soldiers who ruled palestine in a really stupid way.
then the un realized that something is not working and decided (on the 29 of november 1947) on a two state solution, palestine and israel, sound familiar, right?
well the jews were happy. horra in the streets and so on.
this was the first day of israel's independance war.
why? because the arab were not happy with the two state solution, wierd, ah?
and then, boom crack- we got a country! yay!
and in the independance declration david ben gurion- the first prime minister said:
"WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East. "
too bad it didnt happen right?
now ill let u ask some question and will answer them and more in the next time....
Well, if you wish to play that game... who got there first... then you need to return the lands of modern day Israel back to the Canaanites... of course there are no more Canaanites as the tribes of Israel slaughtered men, women, and children as to gain that territory. Because it was once known as the 'Promised land of Canaan'... sort of funny how God works sometimes, not funny ha-ha, funny sick.
The past doesn't really matter, Sparrow. If I'm to use the Scriptures against this fella, I can pretty much quote the incidents leading up to the N ages of exile via the hands of the Babylonians and Assyrians. (The former was for Southern Judah, the latter Northern Israel). Then come 70 AD, The Lord prophesied correctly that Jerusalem was sacked due to the people's rebellion against God. The very fact that the Israelites first lived in this land doesn't mean a dime where their own fallacies as human beings are concerned. It's only a claim of past glory more than anything else in reality's context. We're talking about conflicts and the only rule lies in "us vs them".
u missed the point.
the Canaanites didnt come back nor the monkeys
we did, we are here. period
now reread the end of what i wrote
i will continue later.....
You're remembering the history that suits you, and conveniently ignoring the fact that your people displaced another people by force.
bring me some cnaanites and let me argue with them
Whether the Canaanites are the rightful owners is already moot. It's about politics. Past glories count for nothing. If I was to go by Sparrow's logic, I can also say that the Rape of Nanking is debatable and ditto for the Holocaust as well. If we want to go down to the wire, we might as well play spirit medium and summon Abraham's spirit to give the answer. :S
good, so let's skip this point and just stay with the point we have some right on israel. ok?
now read what i wrote from "but when we came ..."
If I move to - say - Australia and have kids their who, on their own, have kids themselves over there, the Dutch gouvernment won't recognise these children as Dutch citizens. They might come live in The Netherlands, but they have to apply for a visum just like anyone else.
How many generations of exile and genetical divergence would it take for Jews to become alienated from the Holy Land?
Reversely, how many generations would the local philistines need to have lived in the Holy Land to become associated with it by means of nationality?
You always make such well reasoned points Tur
the thing is that if you will move somewhere you will mix with the citizens of the stat you came to and turned to one of them- not the same nation u were before you wen there. in the jew's case it just didnt happen- we didnt marry, combined or turned to part of the nations we lived in (mostly thanks to their hatred...) so yes, if we staid the same nation the land will be ours forever.
to your second question-
first, there was never a plastinian nation. period. it was citizens of the states who lived in israel. the palastinia nation was invented arond the 1960s or even after.
so, if any other nation want to get the land it has to have to coditions-
the land is not another nation's land
it has to be a real nation
both of this conditions were not fulfild so the land cant be their's
uh, the modern borders of Palestine were set by treaty in the early 1920s... my dad was second pilot/flight engineer in the RAF and was stationed in Palestine for a time during WWII and flew bomber mission over Austria. He referred to the country as Palestine and the people as Palestinians... and he wasn't crazy about either, believe me.
As somebody already mentioned, no other people (that I'm aware of) have that sort of attachment to or arrangement with a country.
I'm first generation American born to Scottish and Canadian parents and retain a quasi citizenship as both a British Subject and a Canadian Citizen... my daughter was born in American and therefore has no such ties to Scotland or Canada. The thread to Scotland and Canada is now broken.
the name Palestine was invented by the roman after they coquored israel (then- judaia). idk about what u say about the Palestinians, but it doesn't change the simple point.
because you are now part of the candian nation, not american.
the jews were almost never real citizens.
but you can say that they were somtimes, and ull be right. but the thing is that since america was inhebited everything was changed. us isn't a real nation, not like the jews or even the german. we are old nation who are part of our land and our land is part of us- not a combination of nations that are under the same government.
No it was not.
Herodotus wrote of a 'district of Syria, called Palaistinê' in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley. That was in the 5th Century BC, ancient Greece... not the Roman Empire. Aristotle also writes of a place called 'Palestine' and references geography and events we know to be of that era and region.
Yeah well, prior to 1948 you were not of that land... someone else was.
i hate to say it but sparrow is right. Herodotus in his history books give the name Palaistine. Romans took the name by the maps that ancient greeks created.
Anyone else hear crickets chirping?
i actually answered that...but its not here, i have no idea why!
and i really don't want to rewrite it all- it was preaty long......
Separate names with a comma.