Palestine & Israel

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Kakashi, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Re: Palestine

    Alright...

    I've been giving this matter a bit more thought and time in the last few days.

    We could do a lot of fingerpointing and replaying the moves of the past. The fact of the matter is that I am mostly concerned about the future. It appears that there are three ways out of the issue.


    First of all, there is the two-state solution, as outlined by for instance the 1993 Oslo agreement. Peaceful or, at least, cordial coexsistance means the ellimination of Jewish settlements in the West Bank. It probably also needs Jerusalem to be split up into two capitals.

    Then, there is the de-facto Jewish control with apartheid measures such as is more or less the case as it stands. It would mean a continued lingering intifada - or an extremely severe suppression of the Palestinians.

    Lastly, and there is some talk about this recently, the one-party solution in which Palestinians and Israelis would inhabit the same state with equal, democratic rights for all citizens. Let's call this the South African option.


    Soooo... which solution would favour the various debators?
     
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Re: Palestine

    I think they tried to do the last one in Cyprus too and it didn't work.Both countries wanted to annex Cyprus openly or secretly,the Cypriot government had some set representation rules and rights for both groups,the Turks didn't like it and wanted more,then the Greek junta forced a coup against the Cypriot government...there was chaos for a bit,then the Turks decided to act one-sided and invaded the island which resulted in the island being split into two actually.
    Such a similar case could happen if Israelis and Palestinians tried to have a single government,there would be much mistrust and hatred among the population and it would in the end turn out like Bosnia where some wanted to have one State when nobody of the 3 people who lived there wanted to live with the other two.
     
  3. Aphelion

    Aphelion The Mighty One

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    Re: Palestine

    Such a bold claim, but how do you know? or better yet, how can you know? care to share that source of yours?
    Because, opinions are always good but they are always different, and most of them don't match the truth at all (especially when they are based only on intuition).

    Peace negotiations will only be available if the Palestinians stop the terrorism, lay down their arms, cut all connections to terrorist organizations like Hamas, start controlling their own population in Gaza and West Bank. I believe that if it goes that way then there can be negotiations, and they can reach a mutual agreement, perhaps.
     
  4. Julie

    Julie Well-Known Member

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    Re: Palestine

    You can know by common sense. And also by public opinion polls among the Palestinian population. Here's a report published by the United States Institute of Peace (Yes! United States! The one country that backs Israel no matter what.):

    "Palestinian public opinion is not an impediment to progress in the peace process; to the contrary, over time the Palestinian public has become more moderate. Palestinian willingness to compromise is greater than it has been at any time since te start of the peace process. (..) For the first time since the start of the peace process, a majority of Palestinians support a compromise settlement that is acceptable to a majority of Israelis. (...) Palestinian opposition to violence increases when diplomacy proves effective. (...) A majority of Palestinians are willing to accept the two-state solution, even when this entails a formula whereby Palestinians recognize Israel as "the state of the Jewish people" and Palestine as "The state of the Palestinian people".

    The majority wants a two state solution by peaceful means -- and this is not what terrorism is about.

    Sadly enough, there may not by many terrorists among them, there are without a doubt quite some palestinians who do agree with the terrorist attacks carried out by the terrorists, which is regrettable. I read here in another article, between 1994-1996 1/3rd of them supported the suicide operations, and it even reached 2/3rd in 2000. As stated in the report, the support for suicide operations increases when there's a violent period. This trend is probably the same in the Israeli public opinion. Public opinion has an influence on actions by the government, and we see Palestinian violence being answered by Israeli violence, which is being answered by Palestinian violence, and so on and so.. Of course, this worsens the tensions between the two groups and makes a peace agreement almost impossible; An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
     
  5. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Re: Palestine

    Don't peace negotiations work the other way around? I am pretty sure they do...

    This is requesting the Palestine militias to surrender before the negotiations start. Usually, the terms of the treaty after a surrender would be unconditional, which is something most palestinias would want to avoid. The conditions given above are therefore unreasonable. Sorry...

    Bilateral peace is negotiated by consessions from both ends, including cease-fires, mutual recognition, prisoner exchanges, appologies and forgiving, exchanges of land claims, et cetera. Which consessions would you be willing to make to have these four conditions met?


    Ow, and as to that, I think it's no longer possible to exclude Hamas from peace talks. Since they are they make for the de facto gouvernment in the Gaza strip and have huge support among both Palestine areas, it is no longer feasible to rule them out as a partner in succesful peace talks. Of course, this hard to chew, let alone swallow, for Israeli politicians. But the facts are what they are.
     
  6. Aphelion

    Aphelion The Mighty One

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    Re: Palestine

    Good luck in negotiating with a terrorist organization for peace ;)
     
  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Re: Palestine

    I am led to believe that since 2006 or so, Hamas is willing to negotiate peace with Israel, either directly or via negotiators. I am also led to believe that Israel already has negotiated (or still is negotiating) with Hamas via Egypt, specifically the Omar Suleiman.

    Anyway, negotiating with terrorists is not that hard. Israel did negotiate with PLO, with whom they came to a peace accord. In fact, I can remember an Israeli prime minister who was once labeled a dangerous terrorist himself.

    Another way of looking at it would be that the (or, at least, some) Palestinians are forced to resolve to terrorism faced with the position they find themselves in. I would say that such an assumption would render any argument against negotiating with these terrorists invalid.
     
  8. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Re: Palestine

    Okay not quite as I thought but perhaps using Palestinians from Syria/Lebanon in the Golan as a diversion could escalate into a convenient distration from internal protests....

    Golan: Israel troops fire on pro-Palestinian protesters
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13660311

    Press sees Palestinians joining Arab Spring
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13410940

    Palestinian protests: Arab spring or foreign manipulation?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13406869
     
  9. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Anyone know how accurate this graphic is?

    Israel Palestine land history.jpg


    If it's true then that's pretty hard to see Israel giving back any of the land it's been taking slowly but surely. No nation likes to give back land they've taken and settled. Methinks Israel are stalling as much as possible, so that by the time they get around to "negotiating", the Palestinians will be so desparate for something, anything they can call their own, that the original 50/50 (or whatever) land split will end up being more like 80/20.
     
  10. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Some very interesting and disturbing reading. Testimonies from Israeli soldiers

    PDF testimonies here: http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/publications


    Article here where the above link comes from:

    http://www.haaretz.com/culture/books/soldiers-testimonies-on-the-occupied-territories-1.377196

     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
  11. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    It's sort of amazing isn't it.


    My old man was in the RAF during WWII and was stationed for part of that time in Palestine... what a difference a few generations can make, eh?



    But as they say, the times are a changin'. Israel may soon find itself surrounded by democratic governments and not the tyrants it had made deals with.
     
  12. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    It appears the maps were taken from Wikipedia and edited to show city names.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_Palestinian

    The 1949-1967 map lines up with a similar map in Jimmy Carter's We Can Have Peace in the Holy Land other maps are similar (2000 vs 2008 Western Bank map) but not exactly the same. I suppose the level of control of either party could be argued upon.

    Ow, and I'm sure there was no de facto Jewish land before the UN recognition.

    But yes. Israel took a big slice of the cake - and there's little to no turning that back. There are voices to abandon the Palestine state and have Palestinians apply for Israeli citizenship which, when pushing for it, they could probably get.
     
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    It is absolutely disgusting that the USA said once again "no" to a formation of the Palestinian state.The bloody bastards chopped up Yugoslavia,they allowed the Albanians,they literally allowed the Albanians and helped them to create their semi-independent state of Kosovo,they were pro-Chechen during the Chechen Wars,they were disgustingly pro-Muslim during the Bosnian war and when it comes to Palestine,where they know the bloody bastards know that these people down there deserve to have their own legal and official world-recognized country,the country they've been waiting to have for 60 years,they veto that right.They veto that decision.What hypocrisy and what....moronic attitude.This isn't a way to make the world better it's a way to spit on someone who is slowly dying and laugh about it.
     
  14. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    We did no such thing.

    We've had three Presidents in a row say we are categorically for a "Two State Solution". Furthermore, Clinton-Bush-Obama have tried to get both parties to sit down and negotiate a way to that end, many, many times.
    What we said "no" to, is that the process go through the United Nations.


    This is what happens when gutless Europeans can't even look after their own backyard.
    You really think Americans want to be the world's police?.. we don't. The vast majority of Americans couldn't even find the above mentioned places on a world map, much less want to spend hard earned tax dollars blowing things up.


    That is not the aim of America or most Americans... would you like to know which Americans are against a Palestinian State?.. Conservative Christians! They believe the land to be given to the Jews by God himself, and fulfilling a prophecy. Liberals like myself are overwhelmingly for a negotiated settlement and the formation of a Palestinian State. The majority of Jews in America are for a Palestinian State.
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I know that the Evangelists are pro-Jewish and support Israel,that doesn't mean though that USA's policy should be heavily biased against Palestine,that's what they do in the end,they do everything they can to prevent the creation of a full functioning,normal and legitimate Palestinian country.
     
  16. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    As to the Two State Solution... There's only three (or four) ways out of this civil war.

    The first is to keep matters as they are. With terrorists. With regular assassinations. With settlements. And with a lot of deaths. A very small margin of people support this "solution". However...

    The second the Two State Solution. Two states with clear borders and secession of interventions into one anothers business. This is what most agree about, however the definition of the two states is ambiguous and can't be agreed upon. By a long shot.

    So, the third solution is a One State Solution. If the second solution can't be agreed upon and people are tired of the first solution, the two states could be fused into one. The thing is that, should this state be a democracy, the original Muslim inhabitants (let's call them Palestinians) would potentially outnumber the Jews in the Knesset. One could imagine this does not fly with a lot of parties (but not all).

    The fourth solution is an ethnic cleansing. I wouldn't believe that to be a solution.


    You will notice that, given the four solutions, it's easy picking for US presidents and Jewish lobbyists alike.
     
  17. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    iirc I think the biggest bugbear within the negotiations lies in that one thing called East Jerusalem. When we talk about the monotheistic faith, Jerusalem will be an area of major importance. Historically speaking, given the complications caused by the Arab-Israeli War and the Six Day War. this is really a sticky problem. (And this is not to include the PR thunderstorm caused by very fact that the Palestinians WANT East Jerusalem as their capital.)

    imo, justifying the nullification of the Palestinian State just because the land was given to the Jews by God in order to fulfill the prophecy has been nothing more than political lies spun via the religion platform. And this IS coming from a Christian fundie's mouth here. Rule of thumb: Anything and everything interpreted from the Book of Revelations can only be conjectures via the human brain at the very best.

    And this is not considering the fact that be it in terms of political or grassroots level, there's not much stakes going for the Jewish Orthodox end. Simply put, Zionism is just nothing more than a political ideology because any grounds within the Christian dogma alone will be REALLY dodgy at the very best. -.-'
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  18. Ravenheart

    Ravenheart New Member

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    well...i know it's not nice, but as an israeli i think the best solution would be to let as do the work ourself- talking about things that nobody here really understand (and its true) won't help nor change anything.
    maybe i will want to argue with you all one day, but this day is not close
     
  19. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Well given the entire siege reality, I guess nothing can be done as long as both sides refused to bend over. A little wonder why people tend to say if the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be peace in the Mid-East. If the Israelis lay down their arms, there will be a 2nd Holocaust. And it seems that history might have justified this very saying. :S
     
  20. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Please then, rather than argue, enlighten us - what would be your solution, if you were in charge of the government and military of Israel?