orcs and goblins

Discussion in 'Books' started by emperorjon, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. emperorjon

    emperorjon New Member

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    i never really understood if goblins and orcs are the same or not, in "the hobbit", it says "goblins and orc", which means theres a difference, but i heard somewhere that they are the same.
     
  2. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    they are different! goblins are much lamer...
     
  3. Druid of Lûhn

    Druid of Lûhn The Little Lamb.

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    Nope, goblins are just a way into which some orcs evolved: the ones living in the caves beneath the Misty Mountains became smaller and more agile, so as to better travel through the tunnels. And although the individual goblins are weaker, they are more numerous than your bog-standard orc.

    It says in the 'Hobbit' orc and goblin, because all goblins are orcs, so it doesn't matter which.

    All cats have four legs (under normal circumstances) but not all animals with four legs are cats.

    All goblins are orcs, but not all orcs are goblins.
     
  4. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    it's more complicated than that... depending on the setup... there are orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, Uruk-hai...
     
  5. gumboot

    gumboot lorcutus.tolere

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    Orc is the Elvish, "goblin" is the Westron.
     
  6. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    The Encyclopedia of Arda has an article on Goblins.

    It appears the thing is a bit vague...
     
  7. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    I played some kind of old text-based fantasy game, where "good" races were humans, elves and dwarfs and "evil" races were orcs, goblins and undead... so there was quite a difference between orcs and goblins...

    Also, I believe in Forgotten realms, they are different:

    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Goblinoid
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Orc

    So I guess, since Tolkien created a bit of a confusion, in later fantasy works these two were separated...
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
  8. Druid of Lûhn

    Druid of Lûhn The Little Lamb.

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    You can separate the two, as I said; goblins are a sub-race of orcs, so they're still orcs, but can be counted as separate.

    And the hobgoblins aren't mentioned in the LotR, the Sil or the Hobbit I don't think.

    LikeIn the way that the goblins are small orcs, the uruks are big orks. And the uruk'hai are the fighting uruks.
     
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I agree that every writer for himself is allowed to choose whether Orcs and Goblins are the same thing.

    However, this is the Tolkien section. It appears he chose to have the two to be somewhat interchangeable. But it appears that the Uruk-hai are never referred to as Goblins...
     
  10. Druid of Lûhn

    Druid of Lûhn The Little Lamb.

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    No, because all goblins are orcs, all uruk-hai are orcs, but no goblins are uruk-hai.

    It's like plants: you have the plant itself (the orc race), you have the flower (the uruk-hai), the leaves (the goblins), the stem (your standard orc): the leaves and flower come from the stem, but are not connected directly.
     
  11. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    Like all ladies are women, but not all women are ladies :D
     
  12. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    but if u look at it from a realms perspective they are still referred to as goblinoids
     
  13. AlphaAlex

    AlphaAlex Official Forum Nuisance

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    Same as any other world. Gobbos are smaller and more sneaky or crafty, Orcs are more in yer face tuff basturds lol (spelling intended)
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
  14. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    nope, orcs aren't, goblinoids are goblins, bugbears and hobgoblins.
     
  15. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    my apologies. in real AD&D they are. to quote:
    In Dungeons & Dragons, the primary goblinoid races are (in order of increasing physical size and strength) goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears. All three are adept at sneaking around, although hobgoblins are more concerned with fighting. Later rules expansions and editions include many other variants. In editions prior to the third, orcs were considered goblinoids as well, but are now considered significant enough to be in a category of their own. The 1st edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Set said "The Goblin Races include all creatures such as Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs and Hobgoblins. Some sages extend the definition to Ogres, Bugbears, and Half-orcs." The definition has, since the third edition, been considerably narrowed.

    so it's only since 3rd edition that wizards decided to narrow the definition to exclude Orcs.
     
  16. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    OK, gotcha!
     
  17. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    no worries, spent 4 yrs on the council of the RPGA going through player designs for Ravens Bluff. got to know 1st and 2nd ed intricately
     
  18. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    wow that's awesome!!! I never really played D&D... would be nice, though...
     
  19. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    current games, running a star wars saga edition, KOTOR campaign.
    playing eberon 4th ed, forgotten realms 2nd ed and darksun 4th ed
     
  20. Druid of Lûhn

    Druid of Lûhn The Little Lamb.

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    I'd love to have people to play with.

    I was answering the question on a LotR point of view, as that is where this is posted.
     
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