Of the First Recovery of the Ring

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Turambar, Mar 13, 2004.

  1. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Yesterday I was reading throug the chronicles at the in the appendix of LoTR and I was puzzled by the following: In 1600 SA, Sauron forged the One Ring and in 3262 SA he is taken prisoner to Numenor, which is the beginning of it's downfall. After a couple of selfish kings, the Edain travel West and Numenor is destroyed, with Sauron sitting on his throne in the temple.
    Now, according to the books, Sauron doesn't die because he "Isn't of mortal flesh". And thus the next passage:

    "But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and he was stripped now of that shape, in which he had wrought now such great an evil so that he could never again appear fair in the eye of Men. Yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle Earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his Great Ring in Barad-Dûr,...."

    Now, what I ask myself is: Where did this Ring suddely come from? I can't imagin that he left it behind in Barad-Dûr; Sauron WAS the Ring, his power depended on it. He couldn't have taken the risk abandonning it (could he?) On the other hand, he couldn't have taken it back from Nomenor in his "etherical" state. Nor could he summon it from the sea floor, as is clear from the LoTR-stories. So, am I missing something? At least I can't find any link in both the Sil (Akallabêth) and the UT.
     
  2. Cromat

    Cromat Ash nazg durbatuluk

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    He did leave his Ring guarded deeply in Barad-dur (although not stated, it can be supposed that he put it there), and it saved his life (and again when Isildur took it at the end of the 2nd Age). The Ring is also a survival tool. As long as the Ring existed Sauron existed too, and he believed that no one would be able to destroy it because the only place where it can be destroyed is deep within is own lands, and even if someone would get there he will not have the strength of will to actually destroy it (that was proved true) as he himself didn't have the power to do so. He probably left the Ring because he wanted to secure his existence.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2004
  3. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Yeah... but Gandalf fell in the abyss, too and after coming back, he still had his shiny piece of Bling
     
  4. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    Aren't all the rings connected to the ruling ring. Therefore I'd assume they cannot be destroyed unless consumed in a fire hot enough to destroy the ruling ring. Some of the dwarf rings were destroyed from very, hot powerful dragons that probably could create heat as high as Mount Doom.

    I don't think this quote necessarily means that Sauron was not wearing his ring. To me it looks a statement of consolidating power. "Taking up his Power" To me, it looks like more of a metaphorical statement than a literal one.
     
  5. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Yeah Nien, but whether or not destroyed, they could get out of reach. Just like one of the Sil's was thrown into the Abyss and could only be recovered if Arda was remade. Just like that, the Ring of at least Gandalf would have been out of reach to most. If Sauron wore his ring in Numenor, it would have been lost for all eternity.
     
  6. Curufeanor

    Curufeanor Master Noldori Elvensmith

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    maybe not forever, cuz i could imagine Osse, the servant of Ulmo, who once served as Melkor's apprentice early in the first age, might have gone on one of his violent 'trips', and returned the ring to Sauron. Even Ulmo could've, at some point, been blinded by the gifts of power from Sauron and handed the ring over to him.
     
  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Hmm... I personally don't believe a Vala can be subdued by Sauron. For instance, Old friend Bombadil wasn't really touched by the power of the ring. Don't Valar always look through all these types of malice? Sure Ulmo would have known about the Ring and it's power and would have brought it to Manwe.
     
  8. Tolman Muggworts

    Tolman Muggworts claymore wielding hobbit

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    Another thing, if a vala did something as monumental as aid Sauron, it would have been noted in the appendices at the very least.
     
  9. Curufeanor

    Curufeanor Master Noldori Elvensmith

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    I didn't say this did happen, and I also didn't say Ulmo would do it. I said Osse, the Maiar servant of Ulmo, who was once an apprentice to Morgoth in the Sil, might be capable of doing it, because he was well known to aid Morgoth and Sauron on a few occasions, being that he had some control of the waters. He (Osse) was also revered AND feared by sailers and fisherman because of his sometimes violent temper in which he would raise up the waters of the Belagaer (Great Sea) against them.

    And this is the reason there was no record of Osse helping the enemy in the appendices of Sil or RotK, and I don't think he did. But had the ring been lost at sea, which I dont think it was, he would be a likely suspect for helping Sauron recover it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2004
  10. isengard111

    isengard111 The Master Chief

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    I don't think Ulmo would have brought the Ring to Manwe, for one suggestion during the Council was to send it over the Sea. And Elrond (I think) said they would not take it. The Ring was Middle Earth's problem, and Middle Earth dealt with it. I bet if Ulmo found it and told MAnwe, he would be ordered to throw it back.

    Weren't there also spies of Sauron in the ocean as well?
     
  11. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    No dragon fire could destroy the one ring. It didn't really matter how hot the fire was, it is simply that it could only be destroyed in the fire of mount doom. If it was only about the heat, then I am sure Gandalf and Elrond could whip up a fire that hot at least. The reason that the other rings could be destroyed by the dragons was that they were not forged in mount doom. Celebrimbor forged them in an elven forge.

    But as to the original questn, yes he left the ring in Barad-Dur as a way of survival. And then when he returned, he took it up as nienor said, metaphorically.
     
  12. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    You are correct a Valar connot be subdued or tricked by a Maiar which is wat Sauron was. Now Osse could be tricked by him, but that is very unlikely and yes Tolkien would have said so. But the point is, The ring never wne t to numenor.
     
  13. Curufeanor

    Curufeanor Master Noldori Elvensmith

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    I wonder why it doesn't say in the Akallabeth that Sauron never brought his ring to Numenor ? One would think that it would seem an important issue. Oh well...