Discussion in 'Debates' started by Nathan, Sep 22, 2003.
By then all the Elves had heard their call and wanted to sail to the undying lands.
Okaay... so the elves were the "maidens in distress" but I have to agree with Strider on this one. The elves had been born earlier, and so their time came before men. I think the reason that elves did not partake in the third age was because they had all left. And besides, elves are peaceful, as I think I mentioned earlier, and do not partake in any wars that they aren't already involved with, eg the War of the Ring. I think, and this is just an opinion of mine, that elves just got tired of all this killing and dying and suffering that war most certainly brings.
Not exactly true. Battle of Five Armies Thrainduil got involved when it barely concerned him. Elves may be peaceful, but I think that attribute does not make them hesitant to fight.
It would depend on how you define peaceful. There are many examples of Elves killing and at time mass murdering people over material things (Feanor and the Kinslaying comes to mind).
Perhaps some of the Elves are peaceful, but the whole of the Noldor returned to Middle earth for one purpose, to fight Morgoth and regain the Silmaril's. Everything they did after that in the name of peace can be seen as a bit trivial since everything began in conflict.
Yes but some elf clans (eg Lothlorien Elves) didn't seem to partake in any wars of any kinds. Mostly you hear about Rivendell and the Woodland elves and whatnot, and I think it very unfair if you say elves all like bloodbaths. Elves are usually in peace, but some, for not all, wouldn't mind helping a friend in need.
Ahh, I find this a bit contradictory as well. Many of the Lothlorien Elves were Noldor. Even Galadriel's return from Valinor is a bit controversial. Keep in mind that there are two tellings of the story, but the one in the Sil says that she journeys from Valinor with the host of Fingolfin.
At any rate . . . who said they all liked bloodbaths?? Obviously not all of the Elves were "blood thirsty" however, to say that the Elves did not participate in the struggle of the third age because they are peaceful would be false. I'm sure that they had their reasons but speaking of the race of Elves as a whole they were certainly not virgin material when it came to waging war.
Hmmm....ok, I was wrong. But I still think That it would be wrong to think that elves ran from the wars. That's my reason for the whole, bloodbath thingy
i think the elves ran from the battles because there race was fading and they were through with middle earth
The elves actually did their part in the war of the ring.
Celeborn and Thranduil had a big battle against the orcs, spiders (and Eru knows what else) of Mirkwood and razed Dol Guldur to the ground, this was considered to be a great feat of arms. The reason that elves weren't very active during this war (except in councils) was that their time on middle-earth was over and they simply didn't have the might they once had. They knew they had to hand over the reins of power and didn't feel these wars were theirs to fight (this must have applied especially to the Noldor)
I so agree with you guys, byzantine and finrod!! I am so happy to finally have someone agree with me!! I have to say that by the end of the War of the Ring the elves that were left participated as little as possible in a few wars and then completely dissapeared, leaving the men and dwarves and whatnot to Middle Earth. I'm happy now....whOOt!!
I don't think that the fact of the Elves leaving middle earth was ever in debate. It is just a bit crappy of them to leave when they were needed the most. Ya their numbers were diminished, but that doesn't mean they could not have stood on the walls of Minas Tirith and slung arrows with the rest of 'em.
But why fight when you could go get eternal peace? Why live and suffer when you've got the Grey Havens waiting right there? I know for a fact that elves didn't want to spend their time slingin' arrows with the rest of em, they wanted to go be with their kin. You know, elf stuff
I think that as for the Noldor, they used the whole third age to go back to Valinor. When the war of the ring took place there weren't many left of them(not nearly enough to form up a host
the ones that left middle-earth together with Frodo at the end of the book were virtually the last of them) and I don't think this was selvish or crappy of them because a power higher than themselves had decided that they had to go and even more important: ( and this applies also for the Sindar)if it had been for them, the whole thing should have been over at the end of the second age when they still had great power, it was because of men alone that the whole war of the ring even came to pass
and from the moment off that Isildur refused to destroy the ring, they knew that sauron would rise again and also knew that when the time came they would not be able to lend a hand.
As for the sylvan elves of lorien and mirkwood: there where more of them than of the noldor but still not too many and they needed all their strength to defend their own borders and just barely succeeded. What also must have played a part is that at the end of the third age the races of men and elves were estranged and even feared each other and they had no communication at all
with the exception of the mirkwood elves and the men of laketown and they did their part in first fighting off the orcs together with the dwarves of king Dain in Rhovanion( Dain died) and then at the destruction of dol guldur.
I think with the gentle persuation that Aragorn recieved, that he eventually changed his mind. Remember Arwen believed in him and told him that the mistakes of his father are not upon him..
yeah, I think there was something in FOTR when she meets him in the place where Narasil was kept, and she says like "His faults are not yours" or somethin....don't quote me on this, I'm not positive if that's the exact words she used
personally, I think that the only reason that pj put haldir in there was to get rid of him; and I saw aragorn's dobts in the books as well, he was afraid that he'd be like his forebears in his similar weaknesses.
I know they wanted to be with their kin and all that, but it just doesn't seem right it leave and kind of give up when you are needed most. I can understand the frustration, because it was Isildur's fault and all that, but it's no reason to give up and leave. Not all of them did of course (i.e. Lothorlien elves, Mirkwood elves) but the attitude just seems to negetive all the time.
Why leave Middle-earth, which they had fought for so much in past, to be taken into the hands of Sauron? It seems to me that it would be admitting defeat. I wouldn't want to leave until I knew that Sauron would be defeated.
well they left to go to the Grey Havens, Sauron's power in all its might couldn't disturb the elves there.
I know Sauron wouldn't want to for numerous reasons...but I thought Maia's could go to the undying lands?
Yeah, but Sauron's power was nearly gone because of the Forgotten Ring of Power, he nearly died, so I'd expect his power nearly gone. Which is probably why he had to depend on Saurumon for the army and the influence. So if Sauron can't even build an army, how could he manage to get into the Grey Havens?
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