Obamacare

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Julie, Sep 27, 2013.

  1. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    What you conveniently left out was that ObamaCare is no longer a Bill being debated and put up for vote in our Houses of Congress... OBAMACARE IS LAW. It was passed into law after much debate and compromise, passed Constitutional scrutiny in our Supreme Court, and is now being held up by those far right Tea Party folks who didn't get what they wanted. Period.

    All three branches of the government have spoken already; ObamaCare has been voted on and signed into Law and is Constitutionally vindicated... time to fund it into practice!
     
  2. Greybeard

    Greybeard Geezer

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    I'm not conveniently leaving anything out. I'm merely presenting a dissenting opinion. The "Obamacare is law issue" has been mentioned in this thread before and I didn't feel the need to state it again, so I limited my comments to those issues which had not previously been raised. Since Jim asked specific questions, I wanted to make certain he had both sides to consider.

    Incidentally, I do find it amusing that liberals believe that this law must be obeyed when they conveniently ignore so many others.

    I'll leave now and let you have your undisturbed hissy fit.
     
  3. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    And remember, Jim, that Greybeard is a highly-biased, right-wing source. His arguments are hardly objective.

    First, challenging everything the President does and leading us to a shutdown is not their job. But it's okay, we've had 17 shutdowns in the past 37 years, nbd.

    Second, no it's not socialized medicine. It's not socialized medicine because ignorant people in this country didn't want socialized medicine and this is the only way to ensure that we are getting what we want (read: healthcare). And you know why people are getting cut to 30 hours or less? Same reason they always have. We live in a capitalist society where money is more valued than the people who make the money. There's always a runaround and someone is going to find it. Long before Obamacare, I was getting my hours cut to ONE hour below fulltime so that my employers didn't have to give me health insurance. This is not a new practice.

    Third, basically, the donkeys will always blame the elephants and vice versa because this country is horribly divided and that's the way they all want it. Government gets more power that way.

    Fourth, http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/09/27/poll-more-oppose-obamacare-than-affordable-care-act/?FB ... yeah, surveys can be a little weird sometimes, I don't trust them.

    No one is saying that there isn't two sides to the issue, and obviously you are going to think that your arguments are better because you're arguing for what you believe is right.

    Also, let's all just forget about the good things that ObamaCare is going to do for us.

    Lol. That's a very nice unbiased opinion you have there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
  4. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    alrighty, i spent 6 hrs last night doing as much research as i could, then explained it as non biased as i could to my friends in the UK.

    heres the convo, and please correct me on any misconcepptions

    [Dooku] you heard of obamacare right
    [5:04:06 AM | Edited 5:04:18 AM] Terri: yeah, i hear americans talking about it all the time
    [5:04:08 AM] Dom: lack of money from what internet memes have told me, but also they said they had enough money to bomb syria 3 weeks ago
    [5:04:36 AM] Dooku: they have money, but the house of reps won't release the budget, so they can't legally touch it
    [5:04:48 AM] Dooku: the problem is obamacare
    [5:04:58 AM] Terri: so are they witholding the budget so they cant bomb syria?
    [5:05:08 AM] Dooku: there is a clause in obamacare that the republicans want removed
    [5:05:27 AM] Dooku: basically it forces all americans to get health care coverage
    [5:05:41 AM] Terri: yeah i that is what they are all whining about
    [5:05:47 AM] Dooku: it also forces employers to pay for it for any employee working a minimum of 30 hrs a week
    [5:05:50 AM] Terri: so are they just stalling
    [5:06:13 AM] Dooku: workers there have way less rights than australia and the uk
    [5:06:28 AM] Dooku: so employers are cutting hrs to get people under the 30 hrs
    [5:06:49 AM] Dooku: now, not everyone qualifies for the govt free health care
    [5:07:11 AM] Dooku: so many of those who will lose hours will either have to pay for private, or be fined
    [5:07:31 AM] Dooku: private can cost up to 92% of their new wage in some cases
    [5:07:48 AM] Dom: thats pretty ****ed up :/
    [5:08:10 AM] Dooku: so the issue is, the republicans want the mandatory (ie: the bulk of the law) removed from obamacare
    [5:08:39 AM] Dooku: the problem is, this will ruin the free care for the poor, since the gov isnt getting the $ the middle class will be paying into it
    [5:08:50 AM] Dom: the irish government want to remove the shanad
    [5:08:58 AM] Dom: the small house of government
    [5:09:04 AM] Dooku: so the democrats have a budget they have been trying to pass
    [5:09:23 AM] Dooku: and the republicans keep tacking on these ammendments to it and sending it to the senate
    [5:09:40 AM] Dooku: the senate rejects it
    [5:09:57 AM] Dooku: so they have no budget until one side backs down
    [5:10:16 AM] Terri: hmmm, i don't see the republicans backing down
    [5:10:37 AM] Dooku: the problem now is they have used up 100% of last yrs budget, so theres no money to pay for the politicians to sit and debate anymore
    [5:11:36 AM] Dooku: with $0 available for the government, they've had to shut down all federally run operatioins, they just can't pay for them till 2/3 of the government makes it and the other 1/3 agrees
    [5:12:00 AM | Edited 5:12:22 AM] Dooku: the 1/3 that won't agree is the rep[ublican house of reps
    [5:12:54 AM] Dooku: we have a democrat president (1/3)
    a republican house (1/3)
    a democrat senate (1/3)
    [5:13:27 AM] Dooku: the other problem is, the democrats won't back down, because they believe they were elected with this on the agenda
    [5:13:51 AM | Edited 5:13:59 AM] Dooku: the republicans won't back down because 50% of americans are against mandatory health care
    [5:15:07 AM] Dooku: the democrats believe that they can win this because the american people will blame the republicans, they can call a full election due to lack of funds, the republicans, bearing the brunt, will lose their control over the house, and the democrats can pass any law they want
    [5:15:42 AM] Terri: can't the supreme court over rule
    [5:16:01 AM] Dooku: their supreme court doesnt have much power over their government
    [5:16:18 AM] Dooku: here the governor general would dismiss gov, and declare an election
    [5:16:25 AM] Dooku: in the UK the queen would
    [5:16:51 AM] Dooku: they dont have the same protection, since its 'unconstitutional'
    [5:17:23 AM] Terri: hmmm, the american system is such a mess
    [5:17:25 AM] Dooku: anmd the supremem court has already passed the obamacare laws
    [5:17:34 AM] Dooku: its all kinds of ****ed up lol
    [5:18:09 AM] Dooku: i may have misread some finer points, but i researched both sides and tried to be as unbiased as possible
     
  5. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think you left anything out and honestly just reading foreigners talking about it makes me want to seriously cry. I wish more of us saw how messed up our government is. And I wish I could afford to move to a more socialized country.
     
  6. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    the whole world's watching America atm, and since our news sucks we're just not getting the full picture
     
  7. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    for me, all its done is raised more questions
    1. you elect 1/3 each 2 yrs right, can they slightly alter the order and call elections in both the house and the senate to let the people decide?
    2. can the supreme court or a tribunal of the people sit down and make the 2 sides agree?
     
  8. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    We don't get the full picture either, just so you know. I don't trust the media, and for good reason.

    I don't actually know those answers, all I know is that we have very little say in what goes on in this country. We elect people to represent us from city council members, to mayors, to state senate, to congress, to president etc... and they do really awful jobs of representing us from what I've seen in my short lifespan.

    This is also coming from someone who is not happy with our government. And while I may be labeled as a liberal or a democrat, it has nothing to do with it. I voted for Obama, twice, and I'm still not happy with our government. It has nothing to do with what party is in office and everything to do with their policies and how they are going to treat us. I don't see how wanting basic human rights like healthcare, education, and not to basically starve like I am right now makes me a liberal.
     
  9. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    are the politicians still being paid?
     
  10. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    my thought would be for every day the veterans lose their benefits, the politicians lose a weeks pay. maybe they'd get together if it hurts their own pockets. but hey, i'm a veteran
     
  11. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    I totally agree with you, and yes, congress is still getting paid. When I don't do my job, I don't get paid... gov't gets shut down because they can't do their jobs, and they still get paid more than I ever will see.
     
  12. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    um, if theres no money to hold government how is there money to pay the politicians :eek:
     
  13. Greybeard

    Greybeard Geezer

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    Absolutely not, under any circumstances. The terms and dates of the elections are fixed. Members of the House of Representatives serve two years, the president serves four, senators serve six, and senatorial terms are staggered, so every two years some of them will be up for election. The next election is November 2014.

    I'm not aware of any provision for that, and I don't think there is one. I doubt either side would agree to binding arbitration, and Obama has already started vetoing bills to fund parts of the government classed as non-essential, so he'd likely veto any arbitration he didn't like anyway.

    One small correction: both houses of congress combine to form 1/3 of the government. The last third is the courts. Anything halfway controversial winds up in front of a judge sooner or later. How the courts decide is anyone's guess; some courts are more political than congress.
     
  14. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    ah ok, my bad. that would be the legislative part, i assumed the legislative was the senate since they are the last to Tick the boxes to make something a law

    so the only way to end it is for them to agree on something it looks like they'll never agree on?

    ok, so if the president can veto, how long till the next presidential election?
     
  15. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Yes, thank goodness the Conservatives in this country have such respect for our laws.
    And while we're on the subject of convenience; I'd like to know how you square your belief in God and Christian Morals, all of which you Conservatives tout with nauseating regularity... with the fact that they are suspiciously missing when it comes to ObamaCare and millions of people in this country unable to secure the most basic of healthcare needs?

    Sorry Greybeard, but I've read the Bible a few dozen times and the Jesus I know would not withhold healthcare from the poor.
     
  16. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    You have to understand what the far right Conservatives are all about in this country. There are some Conservatives in America, in the Senate and the House, Governors of States, members of State Legislatures, that want to outlaw abortion. All abortions including victims of rape and incest. I know it's hard to believe but that's the truth of it. So you can imagine trying to pass healthcare programs that do not include a woman's most intimate needs such as birth control and abortion.

    So no, we cannot agree on many things in this country.
     
  17. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    I doubt jesus would be a fan of the current economic model of consumerism pervading the western world (and now Asia) in general
     
  18. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    Basically, Jesus wouldn't be a fan of America.
     
  19. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately the God of Christendom only promotes one economic model in the bible... and that is slavery. Nowhere does God decry the practice of one human being owning another human being. Worse, he hands down a rule book on how slaves should be treated thereby sanctioning institutional slavery.

    Nonetheless, I have an idea that we're all slaves to some degree.:)