New Immigration Proposal

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Lady_of_Shalott, Jan 8, 2004.

  1. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    So, what are your thoughts on President Bush's new immigration policy proposals? I for one am extremely disappointed in them. It's not going to solve anything, just create a larger problem.
     
  2. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    Give a poor Canadian some information. It sounds intriguing, (as with most things proposed by Bush:p).
     
  3. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    Ok, the deal is this: Bush has proposed this new policy to help illiegal immigrants who are already here. It will give them Green Cards so that they can come work here for three years. After the three years are up, they are supposed to have to go home, although some will be eligible for a renewal of another three years. But here's the problem:
    First, it gives legal status to people who are here illegally. (on a slight up side it lets us know who the heck these people are) Secondly, who in their right mind would want to go back to Mexico (which is where most of these people are from) after living in better conditions in the US? There would be a few cases, but after building some kind of life here, who is really going to want to go back? Secondly, suppose someone working here "legally" has a baby. That baby is born in America and thus an American citizen. Are we really going to make the mother (and father if also here for the same reason) go back to Mexico? They have no right to stay but the baby does. Can you image the mess?

    Also, it would allow these people to get social security benefits after they leave! And the real gall of all this is that Bush is doing this partly to appease President Fox of Mexico. This Fox person has actually been whining for years that we aren't providing enough job opportunities for HIS people! So Bush is doing this to improve relations with him and Mexico! Sheesh, at this rate we may as well annex Mexico. Argh this really irks me.....
     
  4. Nerdanel

    Nerdanel [...The Wise...]

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    Well, you're wrong on a few points.

    First of all it is not an amnesty for illegal immigrants. Bush says this adamantly.

    Second of all, the baby may be given certain exemption from the current rule about babies born in the US. For example, babies born todiplomats here from other countries are not granted US Citizenship.
    I'm sure they've worked something out.

    Second of all, I don't think it DOES cause more of a problem. It's a way to regulate and keep track of immigrants, and to create a more tolerant system.

    They will be taking jobs Americans do not fill.
    They take the sorts of jobs Americans are loathe to take, and then are not given any rights, and are taken advantage of under the current system.

    In a country that thrives on its reputation for being the land of opportunity it seems hypocritical to not give members of other countries rights as workers. Those workers will not have rights and be entitled to the same pay and treatment as natives.
    That's a GOOD thing.

    I don't think this measure is the right answer to the problem with immigration...far from it.
    But it's not an entirely bad move.

    You asked who would want to go back to Mexico, and the truth is that a lot of immigrants to the US come here for work, to earn enough money so that their families can live prosperous lives back in their own countries.

    I worked for a Nepalese couple recently. They came here to earn money, and while here they don't earn enough to rise far above a very meager lifestyle.
    But after a few years, they can move back to Nepal and the money they raised here will be worth more in their country.

    I don't think that immigrants ever REALLY want to live in a country where those around them generally regard them with hostility.
    They want to either become OF our country, part of us, or to earn enough money to support their families in their own country.


    Look at it from their point of view, they are poor in their country, their government has few resources and their family is destitute.
    Do they love their country? Of coures they do.
    Are they coming to America because it's a better place? Not really. They're coming to earn a better life for their family. They don't want the hostility, the unfair treatment at back-breaking jobs, but they have little choice.

    What would you do?

    Anyway, it's not an amnesty...so I take that to mean that those already here aren't being given a reprieve.
    Correct me if I'm wrong on that though.
     
  5. Kinslayer

    Kinslayer Warrior of Rohan

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    I personaly would SHUT the borders down!!! I have no problem with legal imigration but when you come here you come to be American not mexican american etc. etc.
    My family not only had there name changed to be more american when they arrived
    and by choice they dropped thier language at the border as well as old world customs,
    my grandparents weren't even aloud to learn thier native tongue!!! They came here to be AMERICAN and NOTHING else!!! I believe this should be the way it is!! Companies only cow down to the spanish language to make money, makes me sick!
    Also did you know that Mexico guards it's border with Guatamala with it's military
    and let's NO ONE in illegaly!!! Kind of odd for a gov't that sends as many as possible illegaly as they can to us!!
     
  6. Nerdanel

    Nerdanel [...The Wise...]

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    Mexico's government can't stand the strain.
    We're more than prosperous enough to give these immigrants jobs.


    And while I understand your sentiments, I disagree with you. Sure, coming to America to live means that you will come to be American.
    But what's wrong with retaining your heritage?
    What's wrong with wanting to hold on to what made you who you are.

    My grandmother refuses to even SPEAK about her heritage. If you talk to her she's lived in the US all her life and never even heard of Spain or Mexico (where she and her family came from.)

    It may help initially in assimilating to a new culture, but in the end it's not the best choice. It leaves people with the sense of not knowing who they are, struggling to find themselves all over again. My grandmother's sister was the same as my grandmother for a long time, until she realised hiding her hertiage gave the message that she was ashamed.
    My great-aunt Juanita is NOT ashamed. She's proud of who she is.

    I don't see what's wrong with staying who you are.

    People don't HAVE to fit into the cookie-cutter mold of what so many Americans have become today.
    Differences are what make life interesting.
    And being Mexican American, or Vietnamese American, or Irish American...it's all a way to show your pride in your past, but at the same time still take hold of and learn the ways of a new culture.
     
  7. Kinslayer

    Kinslayer Warrior of Rohan

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    I dont want cookie cutter molds either but america is america and so on I lived in France for a decade! and I assimulated I wasnt ashamed of where I came from and would have been the first to defend the US hell I had to many times!!! But I spoke French ate French (well some of the time lol) But it saddens me that I can take you to places in GA. where there are vietnameese who have lived here for 10 yrs or more and can't speak more then 5 english words!!! Thats not what America is about!!!! It was the NEW WORLD where you could get away and start over not bring it with you..
    What other 1st world country has this problem??? most others including France wont put up with it for the most part!!!
     
  8. Duke_Aramis

    Duke_Aramis New Member

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    If you think that's bad you should visite Europe now lol
     
  9. Kinslayer

    Kinslayer Warrior of Rohan

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    Yes but the people are completely against this!!!! Austria voted in a pretty much Nazis party, and i'm willing to bet money that France votes in the National Front who says that everyone who can't trace the blood line back to Naepolean or didn't serve thier military is out the door! Here we are expected to do nothing by whako liberals who think they can make everyone just feel good!
     
  10. pinkflyingwalruses

    pinkflyingwalruses Beatnik

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    I personally think immigration from mexico is crazy. We put more jobs down there for lower wages, and they come up here to take what jobs we have left so they can work for more money, its rediculous, but then I am totally against George Bush, since some of his decisions I do not agree on at all. They get better benefits than citizens get anyway, as long as they know how to work the system.
     
  11. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Have a look at this little rant from a guy named Maddox:
    http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

    Warning, there's a bit of adult language, but he makes a valid point. I hate that "they're taking our jobs" rubbish. Did you really want to be a janitor and clean toilets? No? You'd rather sit on your butt watching Ricki Lake and collecting social security payments? Then shut the hell up and stop whinging about hard working people who will do whatever it takes to try and give their families a better life.

    Nerdanel, I agree with you 100%.

    Kinslayer, I see nothing wrong with retaining your heritage while embracing your new country. But I will admit that it irks me as well when people have lived here in Australia for 10 years and hardly speak any english. I think that if you go to live in a new country you should attempt to learn the language, eat the food, and mingle with the locals. It's hard initially, but people respond very well if they see you're making an effort.
    But that is balanced out by the fact that a lot of people who are intolerant of migrants are stemming from racist attitudes. If I had a dollar for every time I heard the phrase "Why don't you go back to your own country?" I'd be sunning myself in the Bahamas.
     
  12. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Immigration is a tricky thing because it not only involves rocking the social boat, but it also has to do with the prejudice and stereotypes that people have about other cultures.

    I agree that many immigrants come here and do the lesser jobs that many people from our own countries think are menial and beneath them. If that is a sacrifice that they'll have to endure, good for them. But if you want to do their job, then by all means, have at it.

    Multiculturalism is a great thing, but it can go too far. I admire the way that when you ask most Americans what nationality they are, most say "American". Ask a Canadian, it's "Italian, Portuguese, Polish"...etc. And this is second generation kids!

    One of the personal disappointments I have about immigrants to Canada are that some come here to have a better life, whether they are fleeing war or oppression or violence or poverty, but they seem hell-bent on trying to turn this country into a microcosm of their old one! Croations fighting with Serbs, Greeks hating the Turks, etc.

    Please, come here, but leave your old grudges at home.
     
  13. Arijah

    Arijah The Firstborn

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    Well spoken! And great use of the word microcosm!
     
  14. mormegil

    mormegil Art House Member

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    well i think our borders should be shut down so that no one can get in rather we use a wall ditch or army (figuratively). now if someone wants to come into the US great your welcomed to come but you need to do it the legit way, apply for citizenship.
     
  15. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Remember that a wall keeps as many people in as it does out.

    Have fun going to Europe or Mexico or Canada etc.
     
  16. 1Ranger

    1Ranger New Member

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    I agree here! Shut the borders down before taking any action to grant even "temporary" suspension of criminal penalties or deportation for illegals already in the Country. It's infeasable to think that we would be able to deport all the illegals in this country, but we need to stop any additional flow from coming across our borders before we even consider removing the criminal penalties or deportation from current immigration law.

    The fact of the matter is however that the Government is trying to get a better hand of "who" actually is already in the country. The INS has been underfunded and understaffed for far too long to stop the flood of illegals into the country. They can't even track those that come in legally and then don't leave the country when they are supposed to. We need to get serious about tracking temporary legals if we are ever going to forge a new policy that is enforceable.

    I think that Ridge and Bush are primarily trying to get a handle on those illegal immigrants who are here in the country for socio-economic reasons only (those that don't break additional laws once they are in the country), so that they can focus on those that would attempt to avoid detection because they are seeking additional lawbreaking activity (e.g., Al Queda or other terrorist types that are "hell-bent" on destroying our way of life). Homeland Security can't focus on all the illegals in this country because of the magnitude, and it would be a waste of money as most are law-abiding once here.

    I would propose that we solve our unemployment rate issues by beefing up border security with the unemployed ranks of our country. I'm sure there are many tech-dot-bombers still out there that we could put towards developing better systems to track and detect those illegals that are here, and that could better provide an accounting for those that are overstaying their welcome. Let's seek full employment for our people and begin to process legal immigration more efficiently so that those that are just seeking a better life are able to reach it within a reasonable amount of time so that they don't have to risk life and limb getting to the country illegally.
     
  17. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    ^^Unless you're pure North American Indian, you're a foriegner too. Don't forget that.

    And I'll guarantee you that when your family stepped off the boat, there were people there telling them to go home.
     
  18. 1Ranger

    1Ranger New Member

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    If that comment was aimed at me, absolutely. Probably no pure blood in me that stakes a claim to this land. I can't offer retribution for the wrongs that occured, but the true native americans never felt they owned the land so they were taken advantage of and desimated.

    I don't say that immigration shouldn't be allowed, I only said that "illegal" flows need to be plugged and "legal immigration" process, procedure, and throughput need to be fixed in order to attempt a solution to the problems we are experiencing today as a nation.
     
  19. matrix9217

    matrix9217 King of the Mark

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    Illegal immigration is insane. Living in Texas, I see these people every day. I go to school with some of them. I dont like it, but now people are too afraid to stand up for the laws of this country, because they might hurt the immigrants feelings. Have you heard the latest on this? Calling them "Illegal immigrants" is no longer politically correct. We have to call them "guest workers". Guest? Did we send them an invitation to come to this country? Did we say, "Hey, come on over, depleate our economy, take our jobs." No. But that brings me to the Bush plan. It is a load of BS, and will not help at all. Whatever he says, it is basically an amnesty program. Dont get me wrong, I think that Bush is a great guy, but I find it hard to believe that he thinks that this is a good idea. If it were up to me, I would build a big wall between the US and Mexico, and would enforce the laws. Now, I dont have a problem with people who come to this country legally, but illegals... It just isnt right.
     
  20. 1Ranger

    1Ranger New Member

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    Personally I think that he has ulterior motives for allowing the proposal to move forward. I think it's concerns for Homeland Security and trying to get a handle on who is here illegally, without malcontent and malicious intentions. If the administration can resolve the "common" illegal immigrants issue, then they can concentrate on the others that ARE here to commit evil deeds.

    Besides, if we don't start enforcing the laws against those that employ the illegals, and make it painful to do so, then it's just going to continue regardless of any program put in place.