Nazi-Germany/ Hitler

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Running Wolf, Jan 15, 2009.

  1. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    ^ Only a question of time before nukes, airpower (manned or otherwise) & tanks are all redundant.

    All it'll take is for weapons to be carried in space both for defensive (take out nukes in flight ~ similar to original US SDI programme) and offensive purposes. The Chinese have already destroyed a satellie from the ground (2007) and the military funds/runs its space programme. They show little interest in teaming up with NASA, RKA & ESA. The 13th man to walk on the moon is most likely to be Chinese.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2011
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    You know...I keep reading about the Waffen SS and...I have these mixed feelings,it's kind of sad.There were about 38 Waffen SS divisions if I'm not mistaken.There were some of them who committed attrocities and war crimes.There were some that committed war crimes that were in such a large scale as other divisions.

    For example...look at that,the Dirlewanger Division was made up of mostly criminals and convicts.It was one of the most despicable fighting units of Nazi Germany.Kind of like a desperate means of putting more men out in the last year of the war.Then the RONA or Kaminski Brigade.The Germans disbanded that unit themselves.

    The Albanian Division was also of competely no fighting capability and full of dissertions and lack of discipline.The only thing they did was plunder and terrorize non-albanians and communist albanians.The Germans disbanded that one as well.

    Then it was Prinz Eugen and Florian Geyer Divisions which are infamous for their war crimes and attrocities.The Polizei Division also commited serious war crimes in my country,specifically burning and massacring two entire villages.

    The Bosnian Handchar and the Croatian Kama Divisions...I think they were involved in attrocities against the Serbs and Montenegrins...well generally the Orthodox people in Yugoslavia back then.The Croats were infamous for their anti-Serbian policy and the concentration camps they had established in the area back then.

    Probably some more Divisions were involved in serious war crimes and crimes against humanity.But you know what?There were some Waffen SS Divisions,probably not few out of the 38 ones that were just front line good soldiers.The Estonians,The Latvians,the Lithuanians...they were literally fighting for their countries against the USSR.For them,the chance to join Germany against Stalin and the communist dictatorship was something rare.
    There were also a lot of courageous Dutch,Flemish,Wallonians,French,Danish,Swedish,Norwegian and (my favorite)Finns who also saw this as a chance to fight against Bolshevism or for a united free Europe.

    In a sense,like I read in a book,the Waffen SS was a predeccesor to NATO.To the NATO of the Cold War I mean.Not afterwards.
    That's why my feelings are mixed.I hate and despise all those criminals and evil people who committed attrocities or found war as a chance to kill and loot,but I admire all those(mostly Nordic)men who fought for ideals and especially when they weren't hardcore Nazis but thought of the war as a united Europe fighting against an enemy.REGARDLESS of many of them being used by the idiot Himmler and some of the top Nazi leadership morons.
    These brave men of the front-lines were awesome soldiers and I admire them as I admire famous warrior castes of the past.You know what I mean?Like an elite of warriors.

    I despise all the criminal elements and those infamous and sadistic Divisions that dared to be in the Waffen SS,but I have respect for all those who fought for their countries and for ideals such as freedom,anti-communism and to prevent Stalin from setting his foot on Europe.Which he eventually did.

    So...well I have to reveal at this point that I have an SS flag.It was given as a gift with a weird magazine which I threw away the same day,because it was full of...bullocks but I wanted to keep the flag because I was like "Hey,it's a historical flag and I don't know if I'll have a chance to find it somewhere or even willing to buy one".
    And...like I said I have all these mixed feelings about having it.Should I feel remorse?Disgusted?What should I feel?I don't know.On the other hand,the communists committed A LOT of attrocities too,but I know that among the millions of the Red Army soldiers there people who just fought for their country,for Russia or for freedom generally and had nothing to do with communism.

    *sigh*

    So what should I do?How should I feel?
     
  3. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    uhhh yeah, and I'm guessing along with these misguided, and just plain weird ideas you have concerning the Waffen SS you also doubt the validity of the Holocaust too. Those who fought under the Waffen SS got what they deserved, the ones that survived should have been hunted down and killed to the very last. My dad was a second pilot/flight engineer in the RAF during the war and flew missions out of Palestine to targets in Austria, and later, Germany. He had a very pragmatic view of the war... dropping bombs on men, women, and children will do that to you. He wasn't a warrior, just a young guy from Glasgow doing his bit for the war.
     
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I'm not denying that millions of people were killed or plain murdered during the war.But I am saying that not all of these men had the bloody mindset of Aryan supremacy and kill all jews or fight for Greater Germany.

    Unless people right now are fighting for Greater America when they join their allies.
     
  5. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    We are each and everyone of us responsible for the choices we make... so when history comes a knocking and you open the wrong door there is no excuse.
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Such a diplomatic vague answer....
     
  7. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    Foi, do me a favor and burn the SS flag.
    The SS did, all in all, terrible things. There's no need to have a symbol of them at home. You don't have a swastika in your room, so you don't need a SS flag.
    Just throw it away.
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    What if I had a USSR flag?
     
  9. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Throw it away too.
     
  10. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I wanted to have a USSR flag when I was a kid.Wanted it so much.Of course back then I also wanted an American flag too...
     
  11. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    For what it's worth, most American flags are made in China.
     
  12. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    Do we need flags at all? I mean they are colored and... umm... wavy but... we don't need them anymore, right? It's not that 2 army face off in a battlefield and when the guy with the flag gets shot down that army loses. We don't really fight that way anymore, so what's a flag worth?
     
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    The flag is the fetish of a nation.

    Quite convenient to be able to carry a nation around in a small bundle of cloth...
     
  14. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    well the americans pledge allegiance to the flag = a cloth.
    That always seemed a bit weird to me...
     
  15. Julie

    Julie Well-Known Member

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    What is a nation if not a feeling of togetherness based on history?
    And the flag is one of the things that represents that history, the thing that goes back to the founding of the state.
     
  16. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    It's worse than just a bit weird... the words "under God" were added mid-century, and that was never intended.

    Nowadays kiddies, and brain dead adults, recite the pledge with hands over hearts... but that wasn't intended either. The original position of the right hand was to be outstretched straight and true... which turned out years later to be exactly like the Nazi salute. FDR put an end to it and the hand-over-heart salute was adopted.

    Check this old photograph out... understand these aren't Nazi youth... they're American kids...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...the_American_flag_with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg
     
  17. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what it is.
    A national flag at it's best is a symbol of the best things a country can offer... perhaps they are only ideals we rarely live up to but I think nonetheless it's quite important. The American flag is part of the narrative of our country; you don't fight for a flag, you fight for what it stands for.
     
  18. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    Well the salute is so old, it's something Hitler adopted... like so many things that nowadays leave a bad aftertaste.

    I didn't know that the "under god" part was added so late. Is america becoming more and more conservative? (I mean more than just the "tea party" stuff but deeper... ummm, how to say that? It strikes me as odd that the words 'under god' were added so late but that even a bit later, it's desegregation time and all. Like for every actual step the US take towards liberalism, the head leans towards conservatism. Did anyone get that?)

    Germany: Black red golden. I have no clue what it means.
    I could guess, but I don't actually know. I just know that parts of it (harhar, it has exactly 3 parts) are taken over from a flag students used during a revolution.

    I could write "Germany" on a white cloth and take that as a symbol... I know what you guys mean, I just don't see why we need it...
     
  19. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    It's not so easy to explain.
    The Conservatives have corrupted our early history to the point that most folks assume our founders were Born Again Christians, which very few were. In fact Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin were Deists and simply believed in an Architect of the Universe that was not acquainted with the daily lives of people on Earth. This was a common Free Mason belief and very typical of men of their rank... that is 'elitists'... which is an ugly word to most Conservatives. Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin thought of themselves as 'elitist' and felt obligated to men of lesser education and rank. By today's standards this would be misguided at best, but for the time it was quite unique. Imagine General Washington fresh off victories over the British Empire and all he wanted was to return home. He didn't lust for power or position, he had to be pushed into further service and run for President. It's rather amazing if you think about it.


    And it would be good to remember that not all Liberal ideas are good, nor do all liberal programs work... in fact many do less than work, they make things considerably worse. And I tell you that as a Liberal and an atheist.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2011
  20. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    I agree. And I ask myself: Where are those people nowadays?
    either they don't exist anymore, or they just get pushed aside by those other power-hungry bastards... Sadly.

    That however depends on the aspects we focus on. Not all liberal things work and not all conservative things work and I am of the opinion, that the world faces problems for which there is no good solution anymore - just options to protect us from worse.

    I guess I'm liberal, but much more one of those "whatever works best for everyone" folks.