Nazguls

Discussion in 'Books' started by Demanor, Jun 26, 2005.

  1. Demanor

    Demanor High Mage

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I can't remeber myself but arn't the Nazgul meant to be unkillable?The reason i ask is this because the witcking was killed by Eowyn but when they are thrown off thier horses from the flood near Rivendell and fought off by Aragorn they didn't die.

    Can ne1 explain this for me?
     
  2. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney
    Ratings:
    +47 / 0 / -0
    First of all, Nazgul as a plural....is Nazgul. No "S," however, thats not important. Firstly, the Ringwraiths survive as long as the Ring does, and as you see, when the Ring is destroyed, the too burst into flames and are never seen again.

    The Witch-king is a slightly different case however. There is a prophecy that states "that not by the hand of man shall he die" (I think the quote comes from Glorfindel, after he lead an assault on Angmar). This comes true in the form of him being killed by both a woman and a Hobbit (as both are not "men"). This could also be true for the other Nazgul, but we never get the chance to find out.

    So, as you can see, throwing them in a bit of water and knocking them off their horses isnt enough to kill them, however it did slow them, as the had no mounts and had to return to Mordor, at which point they were given their Fell Beasts.

    I hope that helped.
     
  3. Demanor

    Demanor High Mage

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    k thanks for that Elan BTW do u know the name of thier steeds(the flying ones)?
     
  4. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney
    Ratings:
    +47 / 0 / -0
    They don't really have an official name, but I know that in the context of the movie they are just called Fell Beasts, which is actually what the book uses to describe them. They're supposed to be very ancient, and the only ones of their kind.
     
  5. Obi-Wan Kenobi

    Obi-Wan Kenobi New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    With my nose pressed against the window at the DMV
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    and in the fellowship, u see aragorn throw a torch into one of the ringwraiths. he is on fire and all he does is run away.. and he doesn't die there
     
  6. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    baton rouge
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0
    The most important detail was missed. Merry stabbed the witch-king with a sword of the dead. the witch-king would not have been killed by eowyn had merry not used a sword of the dead. That's why his statement "No living man may hinder me" was true. No one could kill him. This is a problem that i have with the movie. It comes off as just arrogance and it doesn't make him seem as unstopable and powerful as he should have been.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2005
  7. Obi-Wan Kenobi

    Obi-Wan Kenobi New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    With my nose pressed against the window at the DMV
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    yeah i hate it that they make Eowyn all bad ass, by stabbing him in the face.. when it was really Merry who killed him
     
  8. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    baton rouge
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0
    Well Eowyn is supposed to be pretty bad ass IMO. Most people do give eowyn the credit for killing the withc-king. I think that it was both merry and eowyn that killed him, however. But I just wish that they could have talked about the sword of the dead in the movie. It really "dulls" the power of the nazgul. They are supposed to be invincible. But in the movie the head nazgul is killed by a sword to the face. The only reason why he died from that sword in the book was because he was stabbed by a sword of the dead. Don't get me wrong, I love the movies and the books, but that's just one part in the movie that I wish they could have expanded on. IMO it really wouldn't have taken much to have maybe a minute of the movie that talked about the sword. That's actually the only major complaint I have about the change in the storyline.
     
  9. Obi-Wan Kenobi

    Obi-Wan Kenobi New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    With my nose pressed against the window at the DMV
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    i dont even want to start about the faults of the movies compared to the books
     
  10. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    baton rouge
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0
    Well i normally don't like to compare them because I love both of them. And I have accepted the fact that the movies are an adaptation and from my point of view they come much closer to the books than other movies that i have seen that were adapted from books. But i don't want to get into a discussion in this thread about it anyway.
     
  11. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney
    Ratings:
    +47 / 0 / -0
    A sword of the dead you say ? I always thought the sword Merry received from the Barrow-downs was a sword forged in Westernesse, engraved with runes of power, and since Numenor was among Sauron/Morgoth's greatest enemies, the power of the blade dealt close to a death blow to the Witch-King.

    On another note, I don't believe the words of Glorfindel to be a prophecy per se, rather, like all Elves, he was gifted with foresight and had probably foreseen the death of the Witch-King at the hands of both Merry and Eowyn.
     
  12. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    baton rouge
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0 / -0
    Yes you are correct it is a blade of westernesse. And many times throughout the book the swords from the barrow-downs were said to be powerful. As far as calling them swords of the dead well I think that was my mistake. I have been in this discussion with many people online and someone probably called them swords of the dead seeing as they were from the barrow-downs. I guess I always thought that they were called that in the book. My mistake. Anyway, you are correct that they are from westernesse.

    "Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor."
    -Aragorn, The Two Towers: The departure of Boromir.

    However there is some discussion that Men could not use magic "spells", as was stated by Tolkien in Letter #155: "'magic' in this story... is an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such." However, Tolkien wrote down in the margin, "But the Numenoreans used 'spells' in making swords?" **Notice the question mark**

    This is an excerpt from another online page:

    "There are several reasons to believe that the barrow blades were particularly harmful to the Nazgul. A major piece of evidence is the effect of Merry's blade on the Witch King, as discussed in question III.C.4 (which should be read as part of this entry). A related quote comes from Letter #210, where Tolkien compares that case to what would have happened if Sam had "[sunk] his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh" on Weathertop: "the result would have been much the same...: the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed." It may be significant that Tolkien says "fallen down": he seems to think that any stab (even an unskilled one) would have that effect (while not slaying the wraith entirely)."


    That gives me reason to believe that Eowyn dealt the "death blow" but could not have done that without merry's sword.
     
  13. Galadriel71

    Galadriel71 New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2005
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0
    I know I am getting off the subject, but i am kind of glad that a "FEW" parts were changed in the movies that differ from the books, like the books had way to much singing, and that was kind of Gay, i think the gayest song was the "BATH SONG" when the hobbits are with Bombadil, you all have to admit that your glad it wasn't in the movies. But the LOTR are undoubtedly one of the greatest masterpieces of all time, written by the GREATEST author of all time.
     
  14. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Messages:
    6,553
    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Bittersweet Hell
    Ratings:
    +236 / 0 / -0
    Right Galadriel, LotR is "undoubtedly the greatest masterpieces of all time, written by the GREATEST author of all time." And the film from PJ is the same, just not written, but directed by the greatest director of all timme, and acted from the best actors you could have for these roles.

    I think like Curunir and Elan: this is a little msitake, in the film, but there are more mistakes, witch make the film a bit more confusing if someone hasn't read the book before.
     
  15. Lord Melkor

    Lord Melkor New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Dnt Numenoreans have elven blood in them???

    Thats why the have long life's and do some magic, but i could be wrong. I now the kings of Numenor have elven blood.
     
  16. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,785
    Likes Received:
    162
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Not in Amsterdam :)
    Ratings:
    +189 / 0 / -0
    Well, no, yes and no.

    This one's a bit complicated. In general, they don't. The longevity of the Numenoreans has to be credited to something else. At the end of the first age, the Numenoreans (they were called differently at that time) were the only human race willing to aid the elves in defeating Morgoth.

    In return, they got their own little island, just off the coast of the undying lands of the West. It was said that on clear days, the harbor of Alqualonde could be seen. This island was called Numenor. Either way, being this close to the elven lands made these humans grow much beyond their natural age, something that is still the case during the time of LotR.

    But, as things go, an evil ruler came about on Numenor, who though the Valar denied them the power of immortality and took it up to travel to the undying lands. But Iluvatar decided differently and destroyed them, and all Numenor with it. Luckily, a few brave men set about and set out to Middle Earth before Numenor was destroyed. Cutting a few corners, that's the story of the longevity of the Numenoreans.

    Now, as to the elven blood. Before the end of the first age, two human heroes stood up against Morgoth an stole one one of his greatest treasures (a Silmaril) and made sure that stone would be safe from harm respectively. They both married elven wives. The last of these, Erendil, had two children, whom both were granted to choose between the two races. Elrond chose immortality, Elros chose being a human. Now, we know the story of Elrond. Elros became the leader of what would become the Numenoreans and their king. And in the line of descendance, Elendil, Isildur, Anarion and thus (further along the line) Aragorn as well.

    So, yes, some Numenoreans have elven blood (though highly diluted and not by the laws Iluvatar set to the Elves). However, their longevity is not due to this.
     
  17. Kai

    Kai Dark Jedi Warrior

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Florida
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Maybe I am wrong, but from what I understood was that Eowyn and Merry defeated the Witchking. Still I can't recall and I could be wrong, anywhere that says he stayed dead. He was defeated on the Pelennor Fields and I believe removed himself to regain his power. No doubt the Elves have had more then enough encounters with the Nazghul and I have no doubt defeated them before. The weapons of the elves are more endowed with magic then anyother. In my thought giving the victory to the sword he was stabbed with doesn't make sense. I believe that the Witchking was still alive, retreated to the borders of Mordor, where he waited to return again. This does not disprove the words of Glorfindel. The Witchking ran from him, amidst great battle who would want to lose their power for a large amount of time, when your forces counted on it. Thus by the hands of Frodo and Gollum, the ring fell into the depths of Mount Doom, where Sauron was vanquished and along with him his wraiths, which were all tied to the power of the ring.
     
  18. walker1979

    walker1979 dream weaver

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    3rd planet on the right
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    could'nt of said it better:)
     
  19. Necromancer

    Necromancer Ranger of Ithilien

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Galtacka
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    I thought it was the Dunedain chieftains that had unnatural long life
     
  20. Druid of Lûhn

    Druid of Lûhn The Little Lamb.

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2009
    Messages:
    7,088
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Scotland.
    Ratings:
    +64 / 0 / -0
    Dunedain in general.
    As for the Numenoreans, of whom they descend, but the latter became gondorian or evil, and lost all specialness.