Most Powerful

Discussion in 'Books' started by Mystarian, Feb 6, 2007.

  1. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    17,139
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +150 / 0 / -0
    Then how exactly is it powerful? If left by itself it is nothing. It is nothing without a person to have it. Those who harbour selfishness do not necessarily become powerful, not make them powerful, nor does it act powerful in itself.

    So how exactly is selfishness powerful? You claim that there are none you can stand against it, but you have not met everyone to know that. you claim that all are governed by it in their everyday lives, but how can you claim that? What irrefutable proof do you put foward to make that claim?

    Selfishness does not arise from nothing otherwise it would be nothing. Selfishness is not a powerful thing by itself, it's the ability to manipulate it as a tool that can make or break people.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2008
  2. Swordmaster

    Swordmaster Swordmaster

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I meant this in the non-material aspect. One should not compare the material with the non-material due to the fact that they're on two very different playing fields.

    Selfishness causes wars and conflicts. I'd like to say that any kind of conflict is a powerful thing, both physically and mentally.

    I have not met everyone, but it is dubbed as a fact due to the state of the world and that which inhabits it. Everything we do is for ourselves. Whether it be charity or thievery. It is all for our benefit. Charity is selfish because one does it of their own will so that they may feel good (usually). There are other variations, but they work off variations of that principle.

    If you enjoy something, chances are that you're being selfish subconsciously.

    Claiming that this does not affect you means one of two things:

    1) You're in denial.

    2) You're a higher being, like nothing anyone has ever experienced.

    Note: Don't bring religion into this, it makes this discussion null and void.


    Selfishness is the companion of free will and thought.

    Although, without free will and thought, one cannot truly say they are powerful.

    Even in primal instincts selfishness is its companion.

    Without thought in general. nothing would be powerful, save for natural disasters.

    However, if one wishes to debate against this, I expand my opinion and say "nature".

    Nature covers a variety of things.

    If need be, I withdraw my statement and replace it with "nature".
     
  3. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,907
    Likes Received:
    215
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +225 / 0 / -0
    Selfishness may be the motivation for employing power but not a power per se.

    It's clear from the first post and the context in which it was used that 'or thing' related to a character, human or otherwise, which featured in either The Hobbit of LoTR. Specific examples were given also. Selfishness may be a trait of the character you're putting forward though ~ so who is it? :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2008
  4. Graft

    Graft Love-tiger

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Idaho
    Ratings:
    +18 / 0 / -0
    I want to say Gandalf because of his flowing white mane.
     
  5. Entik

    Entik New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    If the criteria is the power of the character itself, not counting the armies or creatures he has in is control (thus excluding for example the last King of Numenor who, for a time, was more powerful than Sauron itself) my answer would be:

    1. Eru Illuvatar (obviously)

    2. the Valar (Tulkas and Manwe being the more powerful ones)

    3. the Maiar and spirits akin like the Balrogs

    4. the most powerful Elves, the Nazgul, the Dragons and the Dunedain

    5. the Ents, dwarves, hobbits, normal Elves and normal humans

    Sauron was said to be the more powerful of the Maiar, but he made the same mistake as his former master Morgoth: he divided his power, so we don't know for sure the extend of his power without his Ring. Also, keep in mind that Sauron is not much of a warrior - "he always prefers to work from behind the scenes, manipulating events to his favour. On the rare occasions where he goes into battle himself, he is always defeated."*

    Gandalf the Grey had both the powers of a Maia and of the Ring of Fire, but was nevertheless easily defeated by Saruman and died in his duel with the Balrog... only the be revived as Gandalf the White, surely more powerful than before.

    so my guess would be:

    1. Sauron with his Ring
    2. Gandalf the White
    3. Sauron without his ring
    4. Saruman
    5. Gandalf the Grey


    I have excluded Tom Bombadil and the Blue Wizards due to lack of information about the nature of their respective powers.



    * from the Encyclopedia of Arda
     
  6. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,784
    Likes Received:
    162
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Not in Amsterdam :)
    Ratings:
    +189 / 0 / -0
    What about Radagast ;)

    I never actually gave this much thought. Nevertheless, it's very interesting!

    But imagine: Gandald did use the ring in that particular fight. The outcome of the entire War of the Ring could have been completely different. I think that Gandalf swore secrecy over ownership of that ring. And, as such, didn't want to wager the chance of Saruman finding out - and prying it from Gandalf in one way or another. Because I think that could possibly have changed the whole outcome in favour of Sauron. On the other hand, swift personal victory over Saruman would have changed the entire war again, in favour of the human alliance - though Gandalf would be stuck with a very interesting amount of orcs...

    I think the book was much more interesting this way.... :D
     
  7. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,907
    Likes Received:
    215
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +225 / 0 / -0
    Disagree with this on a number of levels

    1/ The three elven rings were specifically hidden from Sauron so Gandalf would not have used it against Saruman, making it's holder known.

    2/ Narya's power was to inspire hope and the power to resist tyranny, domination, and despair. Saruman was already in allegiance with Sauron.

    3/ Saruman was the first of the Istari to come to MiddleEarth & was, using Gandalf's words 'Chief of my Order'. I can't recall there being any reference to Saruman being the most powerful although it does refer to him being the greatest ~ in what though? Unlike the film, the book has no dramatic 1-2-1 battle and on being held prisoner at Orthanc it reads; "they took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc".

    4/ Saruman was wise in ring-lore and at Orthanc the book makes a point of highlighting that he wore a ring & called himself Saruman Ring-Maker. Did he have some sort of ring of power?

    5/ Gandalf was at least equal to the Balrog (Balrogs are themselves Maia) having fought it for 2 days & nights on the peak of Zirakzigil before casting it down.

    It is suggested that he was sent back by Eru Ilúvatar and certainly was more powerful, particularly when the time for hiding Narya passed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2008
  8. Graft

    Graft Love-tiger

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Idaho
    Ratings:
    +18 / 0 / -0
    You just owned this debate.
     
  9. Dark Lord Sauron

    Dark Lord Sauron Lord of Middle Earth

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0
    Sauron, at his most powerful (which is before LoTR) would easily win this contest (provided Tom is not Eru). I very much doubt that Gandalf the White was ever a match for Sauron, even in his weakened state.
     
  10. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    17,139
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +150 / 0 / -0
    Sauron and Gandalf are the same type of being, so it's very easy to see that Gandalf could beat Sauron.
     
  11. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,907
    Likes Received:
    215
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +225 / 0 / -0
    Lúthien and Huan the Wolfhound kicked his butt in the First Age

    Gil-galad & Elendil were his match in the last alliance, even with Sauron wearing the ring, before they all fell and Isildur cut it off

    Frodo broke Sauron's power by tossing the ring into Mount Doom

    The Istari were sent to MiddleEarth with the dictate not to match power against power with Sauron but to aid Man to achieve their destiny
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2008
  12. Dark Lord Sauron

    Dark Lord Sauron Lord of Middle Earth

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0
    True, but Sauron was a more powerful Maiar than Gandalf and was not constrained in the same way. The wizards were not sent to be powerhouses and had limits placed upon them. There are/were those who could best Sauron directly, but they are not active in the LoTR time line (to my knowledge).
     
  13. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,907
    Likes Received:
    215
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +225 / 0 / -0
    The Maiar's physical presence is vulnerable

    Examples:

    Gandalf & Balrog fighting to the death
    Saruman being murdered by Wormtongue
    Sauron falling to Gil-galad & Elendil
    Gothmog (Lord of the Balrogs & only 'equal' to Sauron) falling to Ecthelion
    Balrog falling to Glorfindel

    ..but how are you measuring / comparing their innate power?
     
  14. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    17,139
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +150 / 0 / -0
    Yes I was about to ask on what basis is Sauron specifically more powerful than Gandalf. Not to mention Gandalf got a power boost once he became Gandalf the White.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2008
  15. Dark Lord Sauron

    Dark Lord Sauron Lord of Middle Earth

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0
    They are certainly vulnerable. However, Sauron was not restricted in the same manner as the wizards when he came to Middle Earth and had more full access to his power. Gandalf was the most powerful of the wizards after his metamorphosis, but none of them could directly challenge Sauron (or else Saruman would have ... he just wanted the ring and was not really all that loyal). I think I read somewhere that Sauron was chief among the Maiar too, which would indicate that even at their full strength, no wizard could directly challenge him. It took the entire White Council to drive him from Mirkwood, after all.
     
  16. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    17,139
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +150 / 0 / -0
    Actually, Eönwë along with Ilmarë were chief of the Maiar.
     
  17. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,907
    Likes Received:
    215
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +225 / 0 / -0
    Sauron may well have been chief amongst those maiar supporting Melkor but as Met says, not of all the maiar. Others were certainly more or as powerful ~ for example Melian's defence of Doriath was beyond him in earlier ages.

    Gandalf the Grey was considered by Cirdan as "the greatest spirit and the wisest" of the Istari & so gave him Narya. Although fettered to an advisory role on MiddleEarth it does not mean he was less powerful than Sauron, merely that the Valar did not want man/elves to be dominated by the Istari any more than they wanted them to be oppressed by Sauron.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2008
  18. Dark Lord Sauron

    Dark Lord Sauron Lord of Middle Earth

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0
    OK, my mistake; it must have been regarding the maiar supporting Melkor ... Still, while Gandalf may be the greatest of the Istari, there is no indication he is the equal of Sauron; perhaps he could have been with the permission of the Valar, but he was not.
     
  19. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2008
    Messages:
    8,018
    Likes Received:
    116
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    A Pirate city in international cyberspace
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0
    Iluvatar, he created men and elves, as well as he sunk Beleriand, and kinda created the world.
     
  20. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -0

    I have Aragorn high for a lot of specific coincidences that focus on his position. No one else in Middle Earth is able to unite the armies of men, ally with the elves and dwarves, had the loyalty of the Gandalf, could challenge and deceive Sauron. He also had the access to the ring... a combination that Sauron feared.
     
Search tags for this page

tom bombadil most powerful