Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Crouton, Nov 7, 2012.
Hasn't Sam Neil taught you anything? Lol
I posted some wiki articles about this in the other thread.
My argument in that thread was this: Just because plants don't have a nervous system doesn't mean they don't feel their own version of pain. In a nutshell: plants have defenses, which means they must be aware of damage to themselves. Pain is only the body's awareness of damage to itself. It is an unpleasant sensation because it would be maladaptive to an organism if it was a neutral or pleasant sensation. My own feeling is that it doesn't matter if an organism is "sentient" or not: pain is pain and it must always be unpleasant. I don't agree with the argument that it is morally better to eat plants instead of animals because only animals feel pain. Logically, that argument makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
hahahaha those were some crazy dance moves.
I'll need to have a wee read of the other thread.
Would they? I don't think people would adhere to it. There are answers, lots of them but every answer involves a sacrifice of some kind. And people, especially those in the Western world haven't been known for sacrificing their own things for others. Also, cutting back is key. Now everyone has to cut out all meat over night. As I said in my original post, even cutting back 10% of meat would free up enough land to feed 100 million more people.
It's not as hard to rewire as you think. The human instinct, the human wiring is to eat. It isn't to eat meat. There are over 600 million vegetarians in the world. Many of them have been vegetarian since birth, whole countries almost. It's certainly not in any human 'wiring' to eat meat, just to simply eat food. Many people go vegetarian overnight. So it's not exactly that hard to change that aspect of our wiring it seems.
Sure, many Western nations waste too much. But can you really sat that's justifiable in any way? Using our brains survival needs feels like an excuse for bad work. Don't blame us, it was our brains! Our brains don't waste food, individual people do. It's not about survival at all, it's about greed and wealth.
How is it more difficult? How would it be abandoning survival instincts? You say these things but don't describe why. The world growing more crops instead of livestock is a simple idea. Humans grow crops everywhere, in every country on the world. They seem to be okay. Their brains aren't exploding and saying "Oh God, this goes against my survival instincts, I must kill a cow". It just doesn't make sense.
EDIT: I am still trying to go through every post. But while I do this thread keeps getting bigger. I'm still on page one while it's up to page 5 and becoming very hard to follow. I am doing my best to answer as many as I can but I am going away for the weekend and won't be near a computer for at least two or three days. How many posts I reply to depends on how big the thread gets during that time.
Accidental double post.
Western culture punishes making sacrifices, it is mostly about hoarding, survival of the fittest, and bloodline preservation. Probably not the most efficient cultural practices but they have solidified pretty well and would be hard to crack for any reason.
Accessibility and habits. Even you have complained about the pricing of vegan products, it is much more affordable for people to hit up the dollar menu at McDonalds. It is difficult to get people off of something that is a crutch to them and inundates their market.
I'll admit even I'm guilty of wasting food, portion sizes are large here and sometimes it (for some batty logic) is more affordable to get larger sizes of things than to get smaller ones. Greed and wealth are still psychologically built up and reinforced by the brain. As long as the individual feels more secure they will keep at it. Sure things can get out of hand, and it can get bad for other people and other things, but the individual from their perspective sees they are doing well and good and for themselves they are, the brain is positively reinforced and the actions are repeated for more "success", depending on where you stand of course.
Sending goods across the world is costly, uses fuel, and opens more opportunity to pollute the environment as well, self-sufficiency would be better than depending on imports if you want a sustainable end to world hunger, meat or not.
Many people have gone on surviving like this and are fixated on it. Taste is a sense that can cause people to have memories, fondness, even a hunger for a particular thing. People will instinctively want the best tasting thing that they know tastes good because it comforts them. Even socially it can be ingrained, like certain celebratory meals in cultures. A thanksgiving turkey, a Christmas ham, bacon every morning. It becomes ritualistic, and if somebody has been practicing a ritual that makes them happy for the first forty years of their life it is hard to get them off of it.
Crouton, before moving to no meat, lets first take care of these kind of things:
It's around 200kg fruits and veggies wasted per person in EU... I bet we could fee Africa with that...
Another meat-eater claiming he knows more about the vegetarian diet than vegetarians... Do you seriously believe that we only eat grass and leaves?
another tree hugger getting all huffy.
and ps. i thought this stupid thread was dead and buried.
Said by the guy with a zombie sig
Aren't threads allowed to be resurrected if the person who does so adds in something? Still waiting for that part, but still.
Claiming that you don't get enough nutrients from a vegetarian diet is a myth. What on the other hand isn't a myth is the fact that countries torn with starvation are literally burning their rainforests to grow soy protein. The soy protein that could be used to feed their own is instead used to feed our hormone pumped pigs.
I saddens me that you know of the consequences that come with the meat industry and still choose to eat meat. I don't because I care about future generations, your children and mine.
There are certain nutrients you only get from meat, and others that can be gotten much more efficiently from meat. Not a ton of them, my diet personally is primarily fruits, vegetables, and grains, but fish is sorta necessary at the least.
What about overdosing on certain vitamins (Vit A especially) on plant based diets? I'm not even a vegetarian but still need to work on eating less of the stuff as I get about double what I need a day. Not a problem in a healthy individual, but if one were to have kidney issues it would be fatal.
I don't think jumping straight into a vegetarian only society or insisting that it would even be possible is a good idea though. I think that if people get their portions right, start to lower the amounts of meat in their dishes and start to follow more of a food pyramid rather than an hourglass the meat producing industry will have to step back.
Meat is still an easy way to get variance in nutrients if added sparingly, it is the most accessible way to get protein in society. There are economic empire set to keep it that way and a whole culture around it (mention bacon on the internet and everybody goes feral for instance). But if people want to argue vegetarianism as the be all end all to save the future I think that is a bit far fetched. I think people are better off cutting portions as a whole but especially with meats.
Not looking for a vegetarian revolution here, more like moving through reforms.
I believe that ripping nature apart should be illegal, and that meat produced in other countries should be very expensive.
If portions were cut meat dishes would end up cheaper but more balanced making them more of a healthy go to choice rather than bacon grilled bacon wrap bacon garbage that people eat up today. I'm speaking for US portions specifically just from my own experience though.
Also I feel like humans have already hit critical mass, we can't really coexist with nature if our population only keeps growing, things like transportation will also scar the environment, it may be a lost cause all together. I think our best bets for preserving earth are off world colonization, and the possible emergence of digital consciousness. I'm probably too big of a pessimist, but I feel like environmental destruction for food was a step added after the camel's back got broken.
Fortunately, there is a list of ideas that counteract this to a degree. Wall gardens (literally, you attach your vertical container to the wall with openings in the side and stuff grows out of it sideways) is gaining some traction in urban environments, advances in hydroponics, and the farm skyscraper concept (Massive hydroponic structure) is still being tested. Solar is getting more efficient but I do feel we have a lot of room to improve when it comes to hydro power, particularly in rainy environments like Florida or Seattle, that's a lot of water coming off the roof that could be harnessed for power, plus all the water that the household uses could easily go through a power generator as well and provide more electricity. With the emergence of electric vehicles in combination with the above technologies as they become more efficient, cheaper, and hopefully commonplace we could become much more self-sustaining. Plus if we have our food sources grown inside a contained environment pesticides will become unnecessary and fertilizer will be unable to leech into the soil which will eliminate the pollution from agriculture and increase everyone's health with fresh food that was grown close by.
If we tie this entire argument to FANTASY, which is the theme of this Forum Site, then hands down, in a perfect magical world I think we all could agree that no one eats meat in the Land of the Faerie.
Why? Because eating meat requires one to kill a living creature. Can you imagine a fairy killing a Unicorn and ripping out its flesh? NO!
In the Realm of Mortals, death is always imminent, so eating death (we are what we eat and meat is a murdered animal) comes with the territory of mortality.
In the Land of Faerie, we are all magical creatures who can communicate and relate to one another and we would never upset the balance by eating our fellow magical creatures, when all of the magical fruit and foods of the enchanted trees fill our faerie tummies just fine...
Separate names with a comma.