Mass Murder in Paris, and Censorship...

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Sparrow, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. K.S. Crooks

    K.S. Crooks New Member

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    The freedom of speech is very important, but when a religion asks that something not be done and it in no way affects you, then why do it. I am in no way justifying the murder of 12 or even one person in defense of offensive words or images. I would simply like people to consider the old saying of "Your rights end where my nose begins."
    What if the magazine never used the images? What if the people that were offended created a protest in front of the publisher's building? It would be nice if people gave thought to how their own actions affect the lives of others.
     
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  2. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    But who are you, and for that matter who am I to judge what is and what is not offensive? And even worse, and in the end quite perilous, do we allow our government to make those distinctions?
    If a religion asks me to be respectful, then it's at my discretion, not theirs.
    Let's speak plainly and to the point, the religion involved is Islam, specifically Islamic Fundamentalism. It is a religion dedicated to things that are unacceptable and abhorrent to any western society. Publishing offensive cartoons is not what I would consider even mildly extreme.
     
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  3. PerFolmer

    PerFolmer Citizen of Urth.

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    Religion is also an opinion and it may offend. How should we treat the constant claims of religion? I both agree and disagree with you since I think that it's impossible not to offend. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
  4. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    This is an incorrect assumption. As I've said before media pushing for support of free speech against Islam is also pushing tensions between the average "free world" resident and moderate/passive followers of Islam.

    Even if what the west isn't doing is physically harming anybody with this it is declaring cultural superiority over all of Islam. I'm biased towards western cultural values but this is a fire that shouldn't be started anywhere.
     
  5. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Our culture *is* superior to cultures ruled by dogmatic and cruel religious doctrine. I have no problem at all saying that.
     
  6. PerFolmer

    PerFolmer Citizen of Urth.

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    I feel as if I'm intruding on a discussion between you and Sparrow but I hope you don't feel that way, but please let me know if you do. I don't want to overwhelm others with walls of text. I've been thinking the same thing a whole lot lately (regarding tensions) and particularity since the murders in France as I believe that the perpetrators are themselves seeking to undermine the muslims in the west. If they can make the muslims hated they can gain power from an isolated demographic that is both angry and afraid. I don't think that is working though as there's more and more discussion about islam, including ridicule, and if the imams can go about as they did following for example the publication of the danish cartoons I think that western media isn't the one starting the fires even though they provided the kindling.

    I think there's a whole lot of idiocy going on as I mentioned earlier and there's a lot that I don't agree with but on this issue I think that even though these expressions bring forth pain it also brings forth the good discussions that otherwise would have been suppressed as painful or offensive themselves by advocates of tolerance. I simply think that it opens up so many more options for everybody. As an ending note I'd like to point out a thought regarding religion and its followers. I think that religion is like any other -ism regarding its adherents. I don't judge who is a correct muslim, for instance, and who isn't but I do have opinions based on the actions of those who claim to represent a faith and they stir up quite enough for all of us, muslims and non-muslims of all stripes. Therefore I don't see it as a west vs. muslim issue. It's a human issue that concern everybody who has to face a totalitarian movement who claims the right to interpret words and justify actions in the name of a shared ideology. (and thusly, islam cannot be put outside of the issue. We openly discuss other faiths, cultures and government systems and economic models.)

    To be honest it's a difficult topic for me but I enjoy this discussion. I'm sure I'll come back and edit this text when I realize what I've just written!

    EDIT: OH GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE?!

    he.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
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  7. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    If the murderers intent was to stop images of Muhammad circulating they failed miserably... the next issue sold 5m+ copies which was multiples of normal print run.

    A religion which encourages barbaric behaviour or doesn't universally teach that those behaviours have no place in the 21st century deserves to be ridiculed or banned altogether if it is not compatible with secular laws on incitement and race/religious hate.

    I wish the media / politicians would stop apologising that their comments may offend 'moderate' muslims when a significant minority at least agree with stoning, death for gays etc. It's Islam that has the problem, if it doesn't reflect the beliefs of the majority of its followers then it should split into different branches just like the Christian church has.
     
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  8. PerFolmer

    PerFolmer Citizen of Urth.

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    Streisand strikes again!
     
  9. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    "She began to be harassed on the street. And after the Charlie Hebdo attacks in January, things seemed to get worse. On a street near Chinatown in Manhattan, “seven out of 10 people cursed at me walking by,” she said."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/n...-middle-school-in-queens.html?smid=tw-nytimes

    A whole lot of you could do with reading that article. I passed by it recently and remembered I left this thread dry on Elladan's damning of the entirety of Islam. Every christian church isn't expected to ad nausem assure that they've eschewed the offensive and archaic parts. The expectation that every Muslim should hold responsibility and apologize or publicly beg for the mercy and forgiveness of the West because of a few radicals is equally egregious.

    Wasn't there a atheist that snapped and killed people a few weeks back? Being a homicidal isn't an inherent characteristic of any faith system either. I know that card is played often.
     
  10. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    Cry me a river. Welcome to war.
     
  11. PerFolmer

    PerFolmer Citizen of Urth.

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    To be honest I think that what the little girl is experiencing has more to do with general bullying. Being different has always been shitty at those ages. Not that it's right at all, but that's my few cents on that matter. Regarding the seven out of ten anecdote I don't take it at face value. I think there's a risk of confirmation bias on such claims and I would like to know more before I comment on that. Is that representative of the overall population? I don't at all think that all muslims should apologize and I don't really have the same view as you have that some sort of coherent West wishes to have it that way but then again I live in Sweden which is very different from other countries. Isn't there alot of debate about christian religion though? I think so.

    Yes, there was an atheist that shot, from what I think I've heard, a couple of muslims but I'm not sure that the they've completed the investigation yet and if he shot them because of their religious beliefs or of his own lack of them or however one should phrase that.
     
  12. RayCaptain

    RayCaptain 如朱

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    Sparrow, you've been firing on all pistons as of late, and I could not agree with your angle on this more. Conservative Islam cannot coexist with the ideals of Liberalism or what we know as the West. There will always be evil in this world and Conservative Islam represents one of those shades of darkness that actively seek to threaten our way of life, to subjugate and snuff out those ideals we hold valuable.

    As for freedom of speech, my right to swing my fist ends at the tip of the other man's nose. Speech, as long as it is not directly instigating violence, presenting "a clear and present danger", it should not be limited. My right ends at the nose, not the feelings. Your feelings are not and should not be protected.
     
  13. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    I think that's what some Europeans don't fully appreciate about our Freedom of Speech and Expression rights, there's really very few limitations. Thankfully, both Conservative and Liberal courts at both the State and Federal level have upheld Individual Rights over the wishes of some to promote a more civil society... except in regards to moves toward so called "hate speech" laws. I feel such laws would be overreaching and unconstitutional.