Macedonia...there's only one

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Nov 9, 2007.

  1. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Still, it's all pride and stubbornness from both sides, innit? That's the sort of thing wars are made of...
     
  2. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Greece's refusal to let another nation join NATO, to further the international community and PROMOTE GOOD RELATIONS rather than the current pettry squabbles just makes greece's veto come off as petty and out-of-spite.

    All over a name that they should know FYROM will not change whether greece likes it or not.
     
  3. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    @Elladan

    Well we've accepted other names that included the name "Macedonia" in a composite name but they refused it.It's like you know...when we say yes to something they say no,when we say no they say yes etc.

    @Turambar and Crusader

    Well out of pride and stuborness hmm...this is the common people's thing.But the politicians that we have at least in power right now are more to the center,you know what I mean?They're not far right-wing or something(contrary to the Skopjan governments).So the only concern they make and they have stressed it a lot of times the last few weeks is that FYROM keeps making talk about "Greater Macedonia",about evil Greeks who killed "Macedonians"(that's a new invention),about a supposed to be ethnic minority here(they have a political party here but only got around 1000 votes in the last elections),and in their school books,army and generally their society they talk about "freeing" the "Aegean Macedonia".Bulgarians are already mad at them because they also claim a part of Bulgaria as theirs.

    So if they get the name....that means they get to claim history...then they claim ethnic minority...then they claim territory...and if someone wants to re-shape the map in the Balkans they can simply allow all that.

    And besides like our government has said many times lately:All these acts and talk about "lost homelands" by them don't contribute to a good neighborhood and are not the kind of a behavior for a supposed to be future ally.

    Edit: During the NATO meeting President Sharkozy of France supported us and Spain with a few more countries as well.
    One more thing that should be noted is that Belarus and Ukraine were denied access in NATO something that pleased Vladimir Putin and of course was one more slap for Bush.In the end Albania and Croatia(and maybe one more country)joined the alliance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2008
  4. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    LOL and this was how one source reported this "President Nikola Sarkozy supported Greece. Perhaps because of lack of other arguments or information on the issue, he even humorously justified his support with the fact of his grandfather being Greek"

    Great, fantastic, really gets to the root of the issue :D

    This article is quite interesting http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/02/wmacedonia102.xml as it comments on the swastika issue, the RoM's governments' condemnation of it, a glimmer of hope on the names issue, the US view that the name dispute is 'stupid' and even the suggestion that RoM could join NATO with our without Greece's support
     
  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    His grandparents were Jews from Thessaloniki....I don't think he really enjoyed the poster with the swastika...
     
  6. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I don't quite agree. Although there might be some "macedonians" who want this, I think it's quite a long shot to assume that, once Macedonia gets the name, they're a super power all of the sudden.

    Nonetheless, this amounts (to me) to war talk. I'm still a liberal-democrat and I must oppose that as it normally prevents dialogue
     
  7. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    I don't know but (tongue-in-cheek) the swastika seems pretty appropriate to be honest. Your own anti-jewish sentiments have been evident on other threads, during WWII 86% of all Greek jews went to the camps and/or were murdered (admittedly under Nazi occupation) and these are just some extracts from the US Dept of State's 2007 on Human Rights in Greece:

    "issues including ... Limits on the ability of ethnic minority groups to self-identify, and discrimination against and social exclusion of ethnic minorities, particularly Roma. Restrictions and administrative obstacles faced by members of non‑Orthodox religions"

    "Religious instruction is mandatory for all Greek Orthodox students in primary and secondary schools, ...Some schoolbooks contained negative references to Roman Catholicism, Judaism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the ancient polytheistic Hellenic tradition."

    "The Jewish community has approximately 5,000 members. Expressions of anti-Semitism continued to occur, particularly in the extremist press. The mainstream press and public often mixed negative comments about Jews with criticism of Israel and its government."

    "On October 5, 2007, while vacationing in Greece, Nick Kolyohin, 24 from Tel Aviv, was beaten by a group of youths, apparently from Albania, in a violent anti-Semitic attack."

    "On September 17, an ultra-right Greek political party LAOS won 3.8 percent of the popular vote to gain 10 parliamentary seats in national elections. The party leader Giorgos Karatzaferis has publicly stated that the party is not racist or anti-Semitic, but he has frequently denied that the Holocaust occurred, accused "the Pope and the Jews" of a conspiracy against Greece, and at various times claimed that 136 of the country's members of parliament are Freemasons."

    "Vandalism of Jewish monuments decreased, although in February swastikas were painted on an out-of-use synagogue in Veria and in March swastikas appeared in a cemetery in Ioannina. The government condemned the vandalism but did not find the perpetrators."

    "The Central Board of the Jewish Communities of Greece and the GHM continued to protest the Easter tradition of the burning of a life-size effigy of Judas, sometimes referred to as the "burning of the Jew," by state agencies including the Athens News Agency, the National Tourism Organization and Agrotouristiki (a government agency used to promote rural tourism). The Jewish Communities and the GHM maintained that this tradition propagated hatred and fanaticism against Jews. The Orthodox Church and the Wiesenthal Center wrote formal objections to this tradition. The Jewish Community also protested anti-Semitic passages in the Holy Week liturgy. The Jewish community reported that it remained in dialogue with the Orthodox Church about the removal of these passages."

    "Two cases against newspapers for expressing allegedly anti-Semitic ideas remained pending in the courts. On December 18, the Court heard arguments arising from a case brought by GHM and the Central Board of Jewish Communities against the newspaper Eleftheros Kosmos and former LAOS party candidate Kostas Plevris for racism and anti-Semitism. In his May 2006 book, "Jews: The Whole Truth," attorney Kostas Plevris glorified Adolf Hitler and called for the extermination of the Jews. He declared himself "a Nazi, a fascist, a racist, an antidemocrat, an anti-Semite." On December 18, the court convicted Plevris and sentenced him to a 14-month suspended sentence for inciting hatred and racial violence over his book "The Jews – The Whole Truth." Plevris stated that he intended to appeal the ruling. Eleftheros Kosmos was acquitted of the charges."

    I'm not of course suggesting that all Greeks are facists but there's no smoke without fire...
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2008
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Rofl...the Skopjans didn't have any of those in mind when they put the swastika there...

    You know what's really funny and ridiculous?Greek reporter Maria Karhilaki visited the gallery after the veto and talked with the creator of that poster and the gallery and the guy started saying that "The swastika is an ancient symbol of peace,prosperity...." and stuff like that I saw it on TV!I mean....COME OOOON MAN!Lol...

    By the way,LA.O.S. isn't an "ultra right-wing" party,it's just a real right-wing party.

    The Burning of Judas is a very old tradition that we have.

    You didn't mention that Greeks actually saved thousands of Jews during WWII and there are strong bonds between Greek and Jewish families all over Greece.

    Half the stuff written above about Plevris are bullshit.

    Many members of the parliament are actually freemasons.

    And one question for you:

    Are you telling me that in your country there are no neo-Nazis,no right-wing people,no ultra right-wing people and no fascists or anti-semetes?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2008
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    A symbol is just what you want it to be :p
     
  10. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    No of course not although I don't think other nations depict us with swastikas either. You will note that I also did qualify the WWII comment. Greece does have issues with the treatment of ethnic minorities and non-orthodox religions. As a nation you won't even publish accurate demographics of your population and ethnicity. The whole argument surrounding Macedonia, including your own, focuses on Greek claims of hellenic purity and rights to the name, culture and history of ancient Macedonia. Has echoes to Nazi Germany and aryan purity don't you think?
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    No,not at all,there's nothing like that(on your comment about Nazi germany and Aryan purity etc.)

    About the issues with the minorities here's the thing:We have a muslim minority in Thrace,which by some...agreement...or treaty...or...something...I don't know what says that these people are greek muslims,not Turks.And many of them actually say that they are Greek muslims.But some others tend to love Turkey more meaning that they act as if they are a Turkish minority.Personally I don't care,they are just a tiny minority.Then we have many immigrants of illegal immigrants like Albanians,Pakistanis,Kurds,Afghans,Hindis,Russians,Georgians,Ukrainians,Arabs etc.

    The ones who claim to be "Macedonians" without being greek(Skopjans)are about 1,000 people.That's not a minority,that's like a big tourist group!Lol!
     
  12. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    & your source is?

    2001 census the population was split Greek 93%, other (foreign citizens) 7%. Population percentages represent citizenship, since Greece does not collect data on ethnicity. A new ('98) political party promoting the concept and rights of what they describe as the "Macedonian minority in Greece" received 2,955 votes in Macedonia in the 2004 elections so that would suggest the numbers are certainly greater than what you claim, although by what proportion is anyone's guess ....
     
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Even if they actually received 2,000-3,000 votes even then you consider them as a minority?
     
  14. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Well they could hardly be called a majority could they?

    3000 wouldn't be the final number as you're educated enough to work out. That's the number who bothered to vote for that party, not how many were eligible or the total population including dependents etc.

    I note you didn't bother to provide a source so basically you're just making it up as you go along, you've no idea of the true numbers :p
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    The number 1,000something was mentioned by some reporters on TV.Truly if you lived here you'd know that all these Skopjans are organized in this party,so if anyone votes they vote for that party and they're not many or significant,most of them live in places in Northern Greece close to the borders with Skopje.


    And no I'm not making stuff up,I'm not a liar.
     
  16. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    lol I'm not calling you a liar I'm just saying you haven't got an accurate idea of the real numbers. Clearly this 'tv source' doesn't either unless your electoral system allows multiple voting. I'd suggest only a minority would vote in Greek elections too as an entry into Greek politics would be pretty thankless task for a people alienated by the majority. The likely population of non-Greek Macedonians is probably, realistically in the 10's of thousands (not counting those included in the 7% of Greek population who are not citizens).

    Either way actual numbers weren't the issue, it was Greece's treatment of minorities which was raised and why the RoM's may see Greeks as extreme right wing, nationalists and, in that context, why a swastika was seen as appropriate.
     
  17. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Dude listen to me,because you're saying stupid stuff right now making your own assumptions.

    First of all,you have to vote in Greece when there are elections.Second,these Skopjans who live in Greek are NOT in thousands as you want to believe.Not even a 1% of the total population of Greece or of Makedonia.I'm telling you that because I live here.The guy who mention the number was a journalist-member of the parliament.Believe me there is absolutely NO issue of such a minority in Greece,it's FYROM that manipulates the entire situation promoting ideas of thousands of poor "Macedonians" oppressed by the evil Greece in the "occupied" Macedonia.It's all propaganda and totally ridiculous.Take my word for it,I'm not kidding you I've been living in Greece,in Thessaloniki,in Macedonia all my life and I know it.

    Treatment of minorities?We treat them damn well and in fact the State is doing far more for the minorities(Muslims of Thrace and immigrants in Greece)than it's actually doing for the Greek citizens.

    To come to reality,Elladan you should know that right now FYROM is the one that has an extreme right-wing government and a majority of nationalist population agreeing with it.

    Heck don't you dare talk to me about "treating minorities bad"!Especially when you come from Great Britain.Even those Skopjans have been allowed to form a political party in Greece when they talk about "Aegean Macedonia" being a part of FYROM under "occupation".But if you actually want to be serious for a bit you know that allowing them to forma political party when they make such claims is not justice or freedom,it's folly.
     
  18. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    So how do you explain how 3000 not 1000 voted for the Macedonian minority in Greece party? I take your point on the 'compulsory' voting however there appears no sanction to enforce this other than making passport/ID applications more difficult. The 3000 figure is purely for that one party, I have no idea how many splinter candidates/parties there are nor what proportion of non-hellenic Greek Macedonians vote for main stream parties ~ they are after all Greek citizens. What is fact is the total number is well over the 1000 your 'tv source' quotes.

    Sorry Foinikas I didn't say it Amnesty & US State Dept's Human Rights monitoring bodies did. And why 'especially' would it be an issue coming from GB ~ the creator of Amnesty International? The issue is RoM who depict Greeks as facists (use of swastikas)
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2008
  19. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    You know, thats TRUE, dont you....
     
  20. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    ^ lol it is but I doubt whether Greek flag+swastika was a sign of peace, love and goodwill to RoM's neighbour ;)
     
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