Macedonia...there's only one

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Nov 9, 2007.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Actually what you are saying is that somebody stole 2 statues from an Albanian museum and when the Greek government seized them from the people who stole them,returned them to the Albanian authorities.So in a few words the greek government did the right thing.

    Oh and if you imply that the statues were of Albanian origin,you said it yourself:

    The site of a Greek colony and Roman city....

    Have a nice day!;)

    And by the way,Greece doesn't need to steal history,our history is so rich and ancient,that it's usually others who want to steal parts of it.
     
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Lol!You didn't understand what the quote was actually saying.That only Greeks were allowed to the Olympic Games and Macedonians took part in the Games and were proud of their Hellenic origin,the only ones who considered them as semi-barbarous and didn't want them to take part in the Games were the Atheneans and some of their southern allies.
     
  3. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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  4. Sevi

    Sevi Pocałunek!

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    ROFL
     
  5. Count Driloz

    Count Driloz Illyrian Witchking

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    This is just a justification of Greek Goverment of course they can't say we have stolen it we are thiefs, intentionally I posted their official statement to be more accurate. That they admitted they had something that does not belong to them they are many things. But this is Macedonian topic and I don't want to go further this was just an example of Greeks attitude towards their neighbouring countries.
    Because those things occurred before WW1 and desecration of Albanian ancient graves in Cameria area by Greek Priests and their intention is vanishing other ancient history and taking it for themselfs. Its the same fact just as it is currently happening with Macedonian name.

    I think it is neccesary to open a topic just WHO ARE CURRENT GREEKS ARE? I think its a basic question that should be asked?

    But back to Macedonian topic.:)
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Lol ok Count Drilloz when you wake up tell us...
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Here's what happened in the last few weeks for those who are still interested on this matter:

    Skopje(FYROM)continued to provoke Greece over the name issue even more.

    A Skopjan artist,in order to advertise a gallery of art he made about the "Genocide of the Macedonians by Greeks after the Greek Civil War" put huge posters of the Greek flag with a swastika instead of a cross.This is the poster:

    [​IMG]

    That poster remained on the streets of the capital of FYROM,Skopje for days and the State didn't do much to condemn it.

    Another picture that provoked Greece was one that had the Greek Prime Minister Konstantinos Karamanlis dressed as an SS Officer.Notice that the entire "Genocide" thing never happened and it's a rather recent invention.

    All that happened a few days before the NATO meeting in Bucharest.

    At the meeting,Greece finally vetoed the entrance of FYROM in NATO since the name matter has not been solved.

    Bush was really annoyed by that and so was Condoliza Rice who both kept calling FYROM "Macedonia".They don't seem to understand what this whole matter is about.

    But Bush had another reason to be anxious to get FYROM in NATO:

    NATO is building the biggest base in the Balkans and the entire area,called "Camp Bondsteel".It is in the borders of FYROM with Albania and guess what?The company that's building it is owned by Dick Cheney if I'm not mistaken.The whole thing was on TV in a greek programme here about Skopje etc.

    With that base USA will be able to control the oil and gas pipelines that come from the East from American-friendly countries and pass through Skopje(FYROM).That's why they were so anxious to get them in NATO and they've been doing their best to press Greece to allow them entrance.

    In a New York Times article you can see the American propaganda against Greece in what you can easily call the most biased and anti-hellenic article in the New York Times ever:



    Shame On Greece: Messing With Macedonia

    By The Editorial Board

    The Macedonians walked out of the NATO summit on Thursday and we can’t say we blame them.

    Croatia and Albania were granted membership in the western alliance at a leaders’ meeting in Bucharest, but Macedonia was barred for an absurd reason: Greece doesn’t like its name.

    That decision shames Greece and it dishonors NATO, which has far more serious problems and challenges to worry about.

    The name “Macedonia,” is shared by the former Yugoslav republic and by northern Greece. From the moment the former-Yugoslav Macedonia declared independence in 1991, the Greeks — reflecting byzantine Balkan politics — vehemently objected to the new state’s use of a name and symbols they regard as theirs.

    As a result, the United Nations provisionally designated the country as “the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” — or, rather uneuphonically: FYROM.

    Athens has since normalized relations and many countries, including the United States, have abandoned the clumsy FYROM in favor of Republic of Macedonia, which is what Macedonia calls itself.

    A United Nations mediator tried to work out a compromise but in the end, Greece — a NATO member since 1952 — exercised its veto. The alliance operates on consensus.

    Tiny Macedonia doesn’t threaten Greece under any name. In fact, bringing it into the NATO fold would enhance regional stability. Now, there are concerns Macedonia’s failure to gain alliance membership could fan nationalism and anti-Western sentiment as well as jeopardize its ability to join the European Union.

    President Bush and European leaders should have worked harder at finding a solution to this corrosive problem before Greece exercised its veto.

    Now they must ratchet up the pressure on Greece to achieve that compromise so that NATO’s insult to Macedonia is reversed as quickly as possible.


    The next day of the veto Skopjans felt(as was described by many reporters who were there)shocked or as if there was an earthquake that hit them.They never expected Greece to veto their entrance in NATO or that USA no matter all its promises to them would not be able to help them get in in the Alliance like they wanted to so much.

    On top of that they felt angry with Greece.So they steal our history,they throw rocks at our embassy in the capital,they claim Greek territory as theirs,they say they have a minority here that we don't recognize,they say we performed genocide against them(lol),they talk bad about us,they make posters with a swastika instead of a cross on our flags....and when we veto them............they get angry?!Lol!What did they want us to do,let them get in NATO and bow to them and say "Oh welcome!Thank you for accepting the invitation!"???

    Lol!
     
  8. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Erm, some people would think entrance into an organisation that can sanction and exert rules on FYROM might help those problems.

    well, its better than pissing them off the a spite-motivated veto.
     
  9. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Well actually if they wanted a good "neighborhood" they could have it but with provocations like that and territorial claims and talk about minority problems and throwing stones at our embassy or burning our flag or calling us bad names that doesn't help stabilize the area or show a gesture of good-will and friendly or cooperative spirit.It only promotes more hatred and violence.
     
  10. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    What im saying is as a member of nato they'd have to abide by the rules and obey the consensus of the organisation hence; Not do that kind of stuff anymore.
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Theoritically what you say is true and logical.But in in reality that doesn't really happen.There are worse examples for that,the Invasion of Cyprus for example or the fact that Greece and Turkey both of them NATO members for many decades came to the brink of war(literally)at least two times in the last 20 years.

    So we couldn't take this risk,you know what I mean.First of all they won't change their politics,claims or way of thinking and second it's a way press them and make them come to their senses and stop all that stupid stuff.

    But you know what,the Skopjans were so full of American promises and so confident that they kept provoking and provoking these last few weeks and when they finally got the veto it was like a slap on the face for them,they didn't expect it.

    Funny thing is,I was talking with a girl from that country on MSN the other day and if you only saw how much brain-washed these people are...here name was a Slavic name(Borka) and she was named after her grandfather(Boris).At one moment while were talking I said "da da" and she said "Znayes Makedonski?" which with my little knowledge on Serbian means "You understand/speak Macedonian?" lol now what kind of "Macedonian" language is that?:p

    That's a Slavic language that resembles Bulgarian a lot and has some Serbian influences.Or at least it's similar to both of them...you know...Slavic language.
     
  12. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    To be honest Foinikas I agree with the New York editorial, Greece has and is still acting unreasonably over the issue. The fact that some Macedonian individuals are using extremist propaganda is a symptom of Greece's head in the sand approach, not the cause. I'm sure if you searched websites from their side they'd be able to demonstrate Greece extremists are using similar methods. Greece's immediate refusal to even contemplate recognising any name including Macedonia in it, of an independent sovereign nation, is precisely why this situation has steadily got worse. With Greece's use of the veto I'd suggest it will now only escalate not solve anything. Bottom line is the Republic of Macedonia does not have to go on bended knees to Greece for the use of it's own name, recognised by the majority of the international community. Hopefully they will stick two fingers up to Greece and build on their relationships with the likes of the US. End result is that Greece gains another negative bordering nation and will certainly end up paying for this veto with concessions etc to appease the US & their EU partners. Is the cost worth it? The Republic of Macedonia is no worse of than before the vote but Greece's international reputation takes a nosedive and all over a name the Macedonians have every right to use.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2008
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I had a feeling you'd come and post that you agree with that part of the New York Times.
    Actually the difference with us and them on the above is that we don't make huge posters with nasty themes against them and fill our streets with them having little or no reaction from the government.

    Again,they have absolutely no right to use the name Macedonia and let me tell you that along with the name come all their ideas for territorial claims,ethnic minority claims and expansionist nationalistic ideas which only help in creating a bad neighborhood and destabilize the area,like our politicians try to explain to the Americans just in case they understand.

    They chose to be that way,we've helped them incredibly much to build their economy just we like we helped Albania as well and a bit Bulgaria.
     
  14. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    LOL I'm sure you did. What you (& Greece apparently) fail to comprehend is that Greece's playground style of negotiating makes GREECE the problem not RoM. If anything RoM now holds the moral high ground and Greece has pushed the likes of the US into their corner more firmly.

    Your own actions and indeed this thread is an example of Greek propaganda. You didn't create this to see how others felt because you're not interested in others points of view. Instead it's to give you a platform to promote your own one-sided, nationalistic views. It does not paint a picture of a reasonable Greece, it paints Greece in an intolerant light, clinging to the past (or at least your version of it).

    Greece business invested in RoM for profit not for some altruistic gesture. That will continue irrespective of any political maneuvering.

    RoM has every right to use Macedonia as part of their name and this has been amply illustrated throughout this thread. Greece should have worked with them to find a form acceptable to both from the outset rather than throwing their toys out of the pram. This whole situation reflects very poorly of Greece, a proud nation but seemingly incapable of negotiating a compromise.

    Anyway that's my view, which you already knew so lets see what others think :D
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I remind you that their name still,officially,is FYROM.You have a tendecy to "forget" it.

    We don't need propaganda,on the contrary to them,who seem to need it desperately and have been using it since 1991 to achieve their goals.

    You know why negotiations failed?Maybe if you knew you would stop blaming Greece for everything.The reason they failed is because FYROM claimed much more and played "hard to get" twice as worse as the previous years,filled with American promises they kept refusing and refusing and threating to end the negotiations.

    You really have got this wrong,it's them who currently have a nationalistic majority going on a rampage and anti-hellenic delirium right now and has been doing that for the last few weeks.They do everything but help the situation.

    The veto was only a natural response,time is on our side.The Bush government will probably lose the elections and FYROM will probably have a problem similar to the Kossovo one let's not forget that a few years ago the Albanians took up arms and wanted separation of the Western part of that country.So maybe Great Albania will become a reality.It's very possible.

    That's why time is on our side.

    You have to understand that we are not bullies,but when someone bites your hands you just stop greeting him after a certain point.
     
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Lol?
     
  17. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    In the UK we recognise their nation as the Republic of Macedonia, lest you forget it :)

    It was the Greeks major political parties who & I'll quote wiki here; "agreed on 13 April 1992 that the word "Macedonia" could not be included in any way in the new republic's name This became the cornerstone of the Greek position on the issue". Greece is the playground "bully" trying to impose their views on a separate, smaller nation. The rest of world, I'd suggest, just wants both sides to grow up and strike a deal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2008
  18. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Oh sorry I forgot you can't read, at least anything that doesn't support your view of things :D
     
  19. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    And you haven't read the part where they rejected other name suggestions and tried to push us around with the support of Uncle Sam.

    The rest of the world simply has interests that's why they all rush to identify them with whatever name,they don't care if they are called republic of Athens,republic of Macedonia or even Republic of Honolulu.They just want them in their organizations and pockets.
     
  20. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    I believe Greece has suggested the likes of, sticking to their no Macedonia line, ~ "Vardar Republic" or "Republic of Skopje". Other composite names including the word Macedonia suggested by the UN have been rejected by Greece or certainly haven't been endorsed by Greece. Greece does not have sole right or claim to the region or name Macedonia, so it's position is untenable in the long term. Pressure has applied by the US on both sides to find a solution to allow everyone to move on to more important issues.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2008
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