LotR-WWI/II?

Discussion in 'Books' started by Liadan, Mar 22, 2005.

  1. Lews Therin Telamon

    Lews Therin Telamon The Kinslayer

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    If you look hard enough, you can find allegory of anything in anything, whether or not the allegory is actually there or not. The fact is, only the author can say for sure whether there was any allegory, and as we have several instances in which Tolkien vehemntly states vehemently that there is no allegory in LotR, we just have to take is word for it. When the author says it isn't there, no one can say otherwise.

    Now, there might be influences from the author's life in the story; that's natural and uncontrollable. However, influences do not mean allegory. Allegory is the conscious decision of an author to have their writings be representative of true events or symbols of deeper meaning, so again, if he says it isn't there, it isn't there.
     
  2. warrior_squirrel21

    warrior_squirrel21 blue is my favorite color

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    I think it's more or less WW2
     
  3. Wisconsin

    Wisconsin Art House Member

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    Did you even read this thread? Tolkien himself said it was not an allegory of ANYTHING!!!
     
  4. anna236

    anna236 Modern day Anna

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    I agree. This is not exactly the same thing, but Tolkein's friend, C.S. Lewis, is quoted saying "We don't need anymore Christian books, but Christian writers writing books." The point that I'M trying to make is that what heppens in peoples lives INFLUENCE what they write. That's what happened with this, that Tolkein was influenced by WWI and WWII, and you can see that in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
     
  5. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Well yeah it's every person's right to believe what Tolkien said or not...I'm not gonna say much, but one thing is funny tho...the eagle...nazi symbol...symbol of many (evil) empires, which happen to be the saviours in Return of the King...hehe...I'm not claiming anything...but it does stand out:D
     
  6. Wisconsin

    Wisconsin Art House Member

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    The only reason the Nazis chose the eagle is because of it's Roman ties. Hitler wanted his empire to be the 4th Rome (Original Rome, Byzantine Empire, Czarist Russia. Thier leaders were tied by blood all the way back to the Roman Emperors). That would explain the significance of the Eagle.

    I don't think it stands out. There were eagles in the hobbit too.
     
  7. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    right, and who wrote the hobbit?
     
  8. Raven Black

    Raven Black Ishtari Fangirl

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    ...by 'who wrote 'The Hobbit'?', I am wondering if that was a sarcastic question or not. J.R.R. Tolkien wrote 'The Hobbit,' just in case that wasn't a rhetorical (oh, I despise spelling that word) question.

    What is fun is seeing the influences that are in LOTR. You just read it and think that maybe a certain event of WWI/WWII happened then, or something made Tolkien think of it while writing a certain chapter. But it is fun to see the similarities, and to think what might of been happening at that time in Tolkien's life. For example, I see the Shire as Belgium partially, because of the Shire's philosophy of 'sticking your nose out of trouble, and trouble won't be coming to you' <--loose quote. Or, as some people during an EE of one of the movies said about the four hobbits at the end of ROTK being Tolkien and his war buddies.

    I am not saying it is intentional, and perhaps, yes, I am seeing things that aren't there. But it's fun to me.

    What *did* irk me, was that a little after the release of TTT, Some jackasses began to say that it represented the war in the Middle East. Only a lot of self control held me back from smacking their face into 'a whole new world'. For chrissakes, it was written during WWI/II people! September 11th didn't have a shit to do with Tolkien! *grumbles a bit*

    Yes, so that's my idea.
     
  9. warrior_squirrel21

    warrior_squirrel21 blue is my favorite color

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    Hey, I didn't say he said it was ww2. I said it was more or less like it. Take Isengard, it's like Italy. Mordor=Germany, Elves=America, Men=England.
     
  10. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I don't think Tolkiens claim against alegories prove anything. There is no blasphemy in going against his opinion in such a matter. Because, although he might not have deliberately made a resemblance of both or either of the wars, the world - and much so, his world was shaped by these wars. JRR Tolkien started writing his stories in the Trenches of WWI. The matter of good (his trench) and evil (the next trench)was very clear. Epic-scale battles were daily reality for him. Now, you aren't telling me this hasn't had any influence on his stories. I'm sure that war shaped a lot of his thoughts - and thus used, subconciously, a lot of concepts as a sort of template for his story. Nothing wrong with that...
     
  11. Mystarian

    Mystarian Magistrate of the Earth

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    This is not a thing about any of the World Wars. It really isn't completely anything, but the closest thing is probaly Norse legend. Yes, it was the Vikings who made up dwarfs and elves and orcs. They are his biggest inspiration. World Wars have some play in it, but not as much as many people think. (Example: Much of the basic plot of The Hobbit was taken from a Norse saga name Beowulf.)
     
  12. The4thMusketeer

    The4thMusketeer New Member

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    Tolkien himself stated: "I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence."
    In the foreword to LOTR he said: "As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical... It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted."
    [Apologies if these have been quoted in previous posts, but they're worth stating again given how many weird interpretations are put on LOTR by various academics...sometimes a story is just a story.]
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2009