Discussion in 'A Song of Ice and Fire' started by Leyana, Apr 24, 2007.
We don't know... Jon is illegitimate but that that doesn't mean he couldn't make a claim for it.
That's what I like to see ~ intransigence in the face of overwhelming logical counter-arguments
... of course you could be right ... I'm sure GRRM has plenty of surprises up his sleeve
Rheagar is the oldest son of Aerys, and therefore crownprince and heir to the throne. But he is dead.
After him comes any legitimate male children of Rheagar. That would be Aegon, but he is dead. And after that comes younger male siblings of Rheagar. That would be Rheagars younger brother Viserys, but he is dead to.
If no direct male descendent can be found, as is indeed the case, you would look to either male relatives like uncles and nephews, or to the closest female relative. Or perhaps even to a bastard. But as far as I know their is no fixed lagal way to distinguish between these three categories.
(Un)luckily we have one of each category:
Female relative: As Rheagars younger sister Daenerys is the closest female relative.
Male relatives: Robert was acknowledges as king by all the realm. And Stannis is his Heir. Stannis is actually, just like Robert, related to the Targeryens by marriage, and he would be Aerys heir as well as Roberts.
Bastards: If Jon turns out to be the illegitimate son of Rheagar and Lyanna, he could make a claim for the throne.
As there is no clear legal way to distinguish between these three, we actually stand in a interesting situation, which off course is quite sweet for the readers of a fictional story. It also muddles it up a little that Rheagar died before Aerys, which would cause the throne to go directly from Aerys to Viserys, and will it then go back to Jon.
If Rheagar married Lyanna then Jon is Legitimate, and the throne goes directly to him. If Jon is illegitimate, I think the throne goes to Daenerys, as female relatives should rank over bastards, and Stannis connection to the Targaryens is just to far out!
Then there is the question of Jons nightswatch oath. Now there is finally firm legal ground to stand on bacause his oath completely puts him out of the game of thrones. But I prefer to ignore it becuse that is no fun. Especially because Robb the first of his name, king of the North, and ruler of the first men, supposedly named him as heir to one seventh of the kingdom. And it follows by reason that a nomination as heir, would also contain a release from his oath to the nights watch.
All in all it should unfold as a three way draw, between the three candidates. Noone has the better claim and it will all play out by force. I think two of the three will have to ally against the last. Stannis is with Jon on the wall and they have atleast physical procimity, even if they are not on speaking terms at the moment. Dany is in Mareen, and only GRRM knows where she will go next. But it is speculated that the blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice and spreading a sweet scent in Danys prophecy in the house of the undying, means that Jon will be her mount to love. Which would make and alliance between the two more likely. But she will also be betrayed for love. So who can tell how it turns out.
To answer your question directly Arianne. If Lyanna and Rheagar was married, the crown would go to Jon. If Lyanna and Rheagar wasn´t married, no lagal answer can be found, and it would have to be negotiated or fought out. But it will propably come to that either way.
In my opinition it really doesn´t matter who has the legitimate claim. But who can gather most support.
Or you could just say yhat Jon a member of the nights watch, and Daenerys claim is the only legitimate. which would make it all pretty simple.
To complete it all, there are speculation called "the baby Aegon theory", that claims that a babyswatch had been made, which would cause Aegon to be alive, and as Rheagars legitimate son would come ahead of both Jon and Dany. Some people belive Ashara Dayne, who was handmaiden to Elia Targaryen, Rheagars Dornish wife, shipped him out of kings landing ahead of the sack. A lot of people has come up with theories trying to connect baby Jon, Baby Aegon, Wylla, and the mysterious dead of Ashara Dayne in different ways, but they are all quite ridiculous. Accept that Baby Aegon Or a fake baby Aegon could be the mummer dragon in Danys prophecy.
Arrrggg....i need "a Dance with Dragons" so much.....
Thank you Maester very much for this explanation.
We all need ADWD so much.
Maggi the Frog told Cersei that she would be replaced by a younger more beautiful queen, she intreprets that wrong, we all know its Dany, but she doesn't. Maggi the Frog also told Cersei that the valonqar (valyrian for brother) would strangle here, or something to that effect. Hence her terrible fear of Tyrion.
Cersei has intrepreted all of Maggi's other predictions incorrectly, why not the valonqar? Sure, it could mean Jaime, but it could just mean someone else's brother. Dany's brother? A brother of the night's watch? Robert's brother?
Just tossing that out there.
If you want to play that game, we can´t be sure that the beautiful young queen is Dany either. It could also be anyone. Like Margeary, Sansa, Jeyne Westerling, Asha Greyjoy, Arianna Martell or even Myrcella. Perhaps some of you can think of someone.
But lets try to make a list of some of the younger brothers in question:
Tyrion: Have allready strangled Shae. He has the strengt for it and he hates Cersei.
Jaime: Came out of the womb after Cersei, making him the little brother. He isn´t all to fond of Cersei at the moment.
The less obvious:
Stannis: Stannis is Roberts younger brother and he would want, not revenge, but JUSTICE.
Brandon: Bran is Sansas little brother and we know he has very strong arms, from hauling himself around, after loosing his leg.
Arya: Also Sansas smaller sibling. She is perhaps training to be a kickass assasin, and Cersei is still on top of her little hitlist. Don´t know if she is strang enough though.
The far out.
Benjen: Well, he is Neds younger brother and he can´t be all to fond of Cersei. There is speculation that Benjen could be coldhands, giving him a nice pair of cold strangling hands.
Sandor Clegane: The "litte" of the Clegane brothers. Well, it wouln´t be beneath him I think.
Edmure: Well he is a younger Brother, and he hates the Lannisters.
Help me out here. I am running out...
We know wights like to strangle. Any of the people above could strangle Cersei in their wight form. MY favorite would be wightStannis. Hmmm...it seems like I an not Azor Ahai after all.
I like your theories, Maester Joergensen.
I have nothing to add right now, since I already put my theory of baby switching on the other thread.
Besides it's in the middle of the night now were I live.
Edit one day later: Not the really obvious, but I found another 'younger brother': Gerion Lannister. youngest brother of Lord Tywin. He dissapeared on an expedition to Valyria to recover Brightroar. Him being dead are only speculations. People do come back from Valyria. Remember Euron Greyjoy, he too picked something up in Valyria (that nice dragonhorn). Although I wonder if Gerion would have any reason to kill his brother's daughter.
Even Euron is a younger brother, but I don't think Cersei really has to fear directly from him.
(I'm thinking and typing at the same time so it might all be a little chaotic)
Young brother Loras Tyrell might also be angry with Cersei, if he ever recovers. He still has a sister to protect.
I thought of Loras. But isn´t he older than Marge?
No, but he's the youngest son anyway.
I think Tyrion and Jaime are the obvious, but in these books nothing happens as expected, so I think GRRM has some nice surprises for us in his next books.
Well, it says 'younger' brother rather than 'youngest', doesn't it? Technically that would put Garlan Tyrell in there too (although that is very far out).
Do you believe the Rheagar+Lyanne=Jon theory?
I have just finished with rereading AGOT, and I saw many things which make me believe stronger in this.
Lyanna's "Promise mi, Ned", Ned's victim, how he thinks he should have talked with Jon about something...
But maybe I'm interpreting this wrong, because I'm familiar with this theory.
Before I read all those speculations on fora, I did suspect Jon to be half Targaryen, but I was looking into the wrong direction. I still thought Ned was his father.
But then I read about the R+L theory, and I really couldn't sleep for an entire night. It simply makes sense. It's too logical not to be true.
There are so many clues leading to the R+L theory.
One can read them all at Towerofthehand.
Yes, I saw that site, but I want to ask members here for opinion and revive this topic a little bit.
I didn't suspect anything till the moment Ned was thinking of 'living with a lie for fourteen years'.
That's when I understood I had to read behind the lines.
I like GRRM's style of writing a lot, because he writes so many things that have hints in them or have different meanings.
Separate names with a comma.