Joffrey's Fate

Discussion in 'A Song of Ice and Fire' started by LyannaWolfBlood, Sep 25, 2007.

  1. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    I've just flicked back through the threads in this sub-forum and there doesn't appear to be any thread on this topic. Obviously we know that Littlefinger orchestrated the murder through the Tyrells, and that (according to him) the QoT did it. After numerous calculations about the height of the chalice and the table, where exactly everyone was at the time and how the poison was administered we still aren't sure exactly who poisoned Joffrey, how it was done and which Tyrells were involved (though the QoT, Garlan and Margaery would be a good guess IMO).

    Thoughts? Theories? Speculation?

    Personally, I've always thought it was Garlan, given that he was sitting beside Tyrion and should have had a good opportunity to put the poison in the chalice. Of course, that may have put Margaery at risk which makes it a little less likely... What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007
  2. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    Re: Who killed Joffrey?

    No doubt the QoT was involved, but if she was actually the one who did it - I doubt that. I never thought about Margaery. Wouldn't that be sweet?

    EDIT: You may or may not want to change the title of this thread if possible. Not everyone who comes to our little ASoIaF niche know that Joff is dead. :)
     
  3. Gwywen

    Gwywen Member

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    Re: Who killed Joffrey?

    Ok, here's my theory. Oberyn Martell killed Joffry.
    He certainly knows a lot about poison. And he's sneaky.
    Why did he do it?
    Because he hates Lannisters. But of course that's not the entire story.
    He had to find a proper reason to challenge Gregor, who killed his sister Elia and (perhaps? Speculation) her son Aegon.

    So, he kills Joffry with a poison that gives similar effects to Strangler (maybe Joff was allergic to peanuts, which gives the same effect as strangler :D).
    He could not have known about Sansa's hairnet, since the Tyrells and Martells are not on speaking terms.

    Back to Gregor now. We know how Oberyn thinks about Tyrion. Remember the story he told him about visiting Casterly Rock when he was a young man and Tyrion only a child.

    So for Oberyn, it was obvious to pick Tyrion. He knew how his family thought about their youngest and smallest brother.
    Tyrion being suspect for killing Joff gave Oberyn an excellent reason to challenge Gregor. Which is the very reason why he came to Kings Landing! Don't think the wedding was. Oberyn does not care about Lannister-Tyrell Weddings. Al he cared about was getting even with Gregor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007
  4. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    EDIT: Murder in ASOS

    Wow, that's convoluted. I'm not saying it's impossible though. It would require a few things... 1) That Oberyn is either unaware of Doran's plans for revenge, or has lost patience with them. I guess it's possible he decided to come to KL on hearing of Viserys' death, believing that it would scupper Doran's plans for revenge. 2) That he didn't believe Tywin would give him Gregor (definitely plausible IMO). 3) That he was willing to get his revenge on Gregor, not on anyone else. This is where I think your theory doesn't quite work. Oberyn says he wants to get his revenge on the people behind Elia's murder, not just the one who killed her. I think he's gunning for Tywin and killing Joffrey won't help him with that. 4) What's with the hairnet then? If it's just a hairnet, why does Littlefinger know Sansa has it? 5) Have we any indication that Oberyn was anywhere near the chalice at the opportune moment?

    Have done, thanks for reminding me! :)
    EDIT: Have tried to do so, now going to send a PM to a Mod.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007
  5. Gwywen

    Gwywen Member

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    Re: EDIT: Murder in ASOS

    And what if LF and Oberyn worked together?
    How did Dontos get the hairnet in the first place? Who gave it to him?
     
  6. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    Re: Who killed Joffrey?

    Good point... I was thinking that the Tyrells had given it to him directly. All the same, Dontos didn't get that hairnet on his own. Someone has to have given it to him and if it was Littlefinger, it has to be part of a plot. We've no indication that LF even knew Oberyn - it's stretching it a bit to suggest that they were working together, I think.

    That being said, I do think Oberyn's determination to make sure everyone responsible for Elia's death was punished is the main objection to your theory. He definitely knew it was Tywin - it's in his scene with Tyrion in ASOS - and he wasn't going to risk himself killing Gregor when Tywin was still around IMO.
     
  7. Gwywen

    Gwywen Member

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    Tywin invited Doran Martell to the wedding himself. (Doran couldn't come for medical reasons, so Oberyn did). He says litteraly that Doran comes not only for the wedding, but also because he wants to seek justice for the death of Elia and her children.
    Tywin says this without any fear or emotion.
    That's why I think Tywin knows the Martells will seek their revenge in Gregor, not in Tywin.

    I remember reading somewhere that Tywin never actually told Gregor to kill and rape Elia and Aegon. He explained the situation as follows: "I did not tell him not to."
    I'm still looking for that exact quote, it must be somewhere in ASoS, I've been rereading all Tyrion chapters since thursday.
    That very quote would after all prove Tywin does not count himself guilty of the deaths of Elia and her son. And an innocent man has nothing to fear.

    One thing that crossed my mind about Joffry's fate, is the fact that Oswell (father) Kettleblack is the one who has been sent by Littlefinger to help Sansa escape.
    Osmund Kettleblack was at that moment already a member of the Kingsguard.
    So, were the Kettleblacks involved in Joffry's murder?
    Did Osmund give someone a chance to put poison in Joffry's wine or food? Pretending to protect the young King?
     
  8. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    This is the quote I mean, from the scene where Tyrion rides out to greet Oberyn:

    "I did not come for some mummer's show of an inquiry. I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane... but not, I think, ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity that Rides will tell me from whence came his orders, please assure your lord father of that."

    Tywin may not feel he's responsible, but Oberyn definitely believes that he is.

    As for the Kettleblacks, interesting thought!
     
  9. Maester Joergensen

    Maester Joergensen New Member

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    I don´t think Garlan were the one to put the poison in. He was sitting next to Tyrion, and Tyrion were seated somewhat away from the wedding-couple. No way to know beforehand that Joffrey would pick up the chalice and carry it to Tyrions seat, giving Garlan the chance.

    I think the poisoning is a joint venture between Littlefinger and the Tyrell Women. We know from there conversation at Margaerys dinnerparty that the Tyrell women didn´t approve of the wedding to Joffrey at all. They thought that the game of thrones were a way to dangerous game and didn´t want to participate at all. Normally the Tyrell women, even though Mace had the ultimate say in most matters, subtly manipulated things from the background. But when Littlefinger came to bitterbridge with the wedding proposal and the Lannister-Tyrell alliance the women weren´t there and it was a splitsecond decision. Marg and QoT are very specific about not liking the wedding at all. On their behalf I don´t think the murder had much to do with the powerstruggle. That wouldn´t make sense as the Tyrells, with the marriage to Joffrey, were as close to the power as they were going to get. I think that from the perspective of the tyrell women it was just a matter of preventing Marg from marrying an abusive houseband. It is bad to be married to an abusive houseband. But if he is the king, it is the worst thing in the world. Who is going to do something about it.
    I don´t think the Tyrell men knew about the plans at all. They were happy about the marriage, and just wanted to use marg to marry into the royal family. Remember that the Tyrells were never royalty. Either QoT did the poisoning, or she passed the strangler on to Marg.

    When it come to Littlefinger I think Marg and the QoT, were in need of him to supply the strangler and get ii smuggled into the wedding. Alone the two of them didn´t have all the resources of house Tyrell behind them, and they needed littlefinger to get the poison. I think littlefingers had two motives to help them. First he wanted to create as much turmoil as possible. I don´t think he cared if Tyrion, the Viper or a third person, like marg or Olenna were accused. Murdering the king, with the Lannisters, the Tyrells, and the Martells in the city, were sure to have explosive results. And littlefinger thrives on chaos. Off course I think he generelly hated Tyrion, as well as recognising him as a rival. I think he didn´t mind if Tyrion were accused. He did go out of his way (the jousting dwarf) to cause quarrels between Joff and Tyrion, at the wedding party itself. But I don´t think he really cared if this part of the plan worked out. The second reason that littlefinger agreed to help the Tyrells were off course that he could shape the ending in a way to allow him to smuggle Sansa out of the city, and start his sick pseudo-cat relationship.
     
  10. Gwywen

    Gwywen Member

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    I agree with all you've written here, MJ, but still something vexes me. It's too obvious that it went as you state.
    We know from GRRM's books that the obvious things are usually not the truth.

    I admit my first thought was lady Olenna with the hairnet etc., and LF who provided the poison. But still something does not make sense: it's too clear. Too obvious.
     
  11. Maester Joergensen

    Maester Joergensen New Member

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    Sometimes a spade is just a spade.
    George has said that the answer to who killed joffrey is in the book.
    I really think this is it.
    But knock yourself out. Theories are great fun.
     
  12. Gwywen

    Gwywen Member

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    Yesterday evening, I've been rereading the chapter carefully.


    Who is where?
    Joffrey and Maergery have their seats on the platform.
    SerOsmund and Meryn are behind them.
    Between Tyrion&Sansa and Joffrey&Maergery are at least 10 people.
    Next to T&S are ser Garlan and his wife Leonette (btw: a green apple Fossoway).

    At a certain moment (after the scene with the two dwarfs on a pig and a dog)Joffrey walks towards Tyrion to poor his wine over Tyrion.
    After this humiliation, Joffrey tells Tyrion to fill his royal chalice with wine. Tyrion obeys, Joffrey drinks, and puts the chalice back on the table.
    At that moment Lord Tywin tells Joff the pie has arrived.
    Maergery stretches the moment by stating that Widow's Wail is not meant to cut pies.
    Joff asks for ser Ilyn's sword and cuts the pie.
    Everybody's attention is now on the pie, the pigeons and the King.
    (The chalice still unguarded and forgotten on Tyrion's table.)
    All guests receive a piece of the pie.
    Tyrion too, but he had by then lost his appetite and wanted to change clothes.
    But before he can do so, Joffrey returns to their table and forbids Tyrion to leave.
    He notices his uncle has not eaten his pie and starts eating it himself.
    That is when he coughs the first time.
    He mentions the pie is too dry and grabs the royal chalice to drink, but that seems to make things even worse and moments later he is dead.

    Now, this is what caught my attention:
    The chalice standing unguarded on Tyrion's table.
    Joffrey choking from Tyrion's pie.
    The wine being described as 'dark red' when Joff drinks it, but described as 'half an inch of dark purple residue' just before Tyrion poors the rest of it on the floor.

    And: Ser Garlan.
    Ser Garlan telling Tyrion he's destined to perform great achievements.
    Ser Garlan's hand on Tyrion's sleeve, while warning:"Watch out, milord. The King."
    Ser Garlan telling Joffrey it was wrong to poor the wine over Tyrion.
    Ser Garlan helping Tyrion up when he almost fell.
    Ser Garlan sitting only inches from the royal chalice while every guest is looking at the pigeons that fly from the pie.

    I think that makes two possibilities:
    One is quite unlikely, that it was Tyrion's pie that was poisoned (perhaps the lemoncream that a servant poored on it), and Tyrion was the one meant to die.

    The second one is more likely: Somehow Lady Olenna knows about the hairnet, the amethysts are in fact granules of Strangler, Lady Olenna picks one out of the hairnet when she's touching Sansa's hair - and somehow manages to pass it over to her grandson Garlan, who, after carefully rereading, is certainly involved.

    Some questions remain nevertheless:
    How did Dontos get the hairnet, who is the contactman between Dontos and Littlefinger (I think Oswell Kettleblack), how did Lady Olenna get involved, where did LF get the hairnet and did whoever poisoned Joff, deliberately pick Tyrion because he's a Lannister and there's nothing so much fun as to see Lannisters kill each other?

    Still, I think there's a possibility that somehow Oberyn provided LF with the hairnet. Oberyn knows a lot about poison.

    Also note that Lady Alerie is the one who says Joff choked from the pie.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2007
  13. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    Wouldn't it be interesting if the poison didn't come from the wine, but from Tyrion's pie?
     
  14. Gwywen

    Gwywen Member

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    Yes, I've been thinking about that, too. But that would mean someone was trying to murder Tyrion?
    And was it indeed the lemoncream that the servant poored upon his pie? (Since everybody else had also aten the pie, and no one else died)
     
  15. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    But wouldn't some of the others have had lemoncream on their pie too?
     
  16. Gwywen

    Gwywen Member

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    Maybe. It's only mentioned for Tyrion's pie though.
     
  17. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    Yeah, but if it was poisoned no-one could guarantee that only Tyrion would have some. Half the table could have suddenly decided to opt for the sauce.
     
  18. Gwywen

    Gwywen Member

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    Maybe that was the purpose of it. Which brings us back to Oberyn as the main suspect, trying to eliminate the entire Tyrell family at once. :D :D

    No, let's be serious now. Tyrion did in fact not ask for the lemoncream, the servant just poored it over his pie.
     
  19. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    So, is the servant Varys in disguise? ;)
     
  20. Gwywen

    Gwywen Member

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    Interesting. But there's nothing mentioned about the looks of this servant. I'll have to reread the chapter again...
    Maybe LF tried to murder Tyrion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2007