Islamic Debate

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Sparrow, Sep 13, 2012.

  1. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Not by the will of every American, not all Americans are head-strong people, not all of them are at the top of the food chain within America. Culturally we have been very tolerable of dissidents (in modern times). Sure if you re-replicated a new history then you could apply the scenario to any country and have a few mad people that start burning things. But the US has gone through this enough already to the point where we can take insults. In the reality that we have I think the amount of aggressive reactions would be negligible compared to the uproar that is spreading from this one single incident.

    That is part of the subjectivity of it, it is hard to imagine, if even possible, what others really think, feel, and perceive sometimes.
     
  2. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    Like Sydney, Australia? It's true that most of them are in Middle Eastern countries but I bet this will keep spreading as more "peaceful" protests in Western countries get out of hand.
     
  3. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    ... then you need to travel some more.

    You talk about a single incident. The bigger picture that I was trying to show is that this is, by no means, a single incident. It's a spark, yes. But the incident has a stretch of around and about 70 years. Two generations, possibly three. This movie incident is a bit like Ariel Sharon visiting the Al-Aqsa Mosque. On the face of it, it's no big deal. But considering the sensitivity of past matters and unstable situation surrounding that act, the outcome had to be violent.
     
  4. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    I need to travel more around my own country to realize that more people would riot if given a pitiable reason? I might be reading what you mean wrong.

    I'll admit I'm very detached from history and culture but I say all for the better, I don't bear the grudges my grandparents and parents had and I'm willing to move on to make a less insufferable world. People don't have to detach themselves from their culture to realize that revenge doesn't do a thing and killing people won't bring back dead ones. Sure they might have to detach from some of the emotions tied to it, but for people not to consider the dire worth of the life of a human being given the chance is an issue.
     
  5. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    No, you got it right. It's all about point of view, see. It's very hard to actually get that without traveling around, seeing for yourself - and talking to people in situations completely alien to yourself.
     
  6. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but it still doesn't give credence to certain things and events, no matter how well traveled you are.

    We live in a free society in America and we pretty much believe, say, and do what we want, Islam be damned. It's a religion and a people who are horribly in need of reformation. As a taxpayer I would prefer that the reformation be internal and not spill over to western countries, but since that seems to be impossible we will most likely continue the reformation process at the business end of a gun.

    It is the responsibility of the good folks, the moderate and better educated folks to take care of the religious fanaticism in their own countries.
     
  7. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    I just stopped taking this thread seriously. I can't wait for America to get invaded and become a failed state.
     
  8. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    But assuming that people would riot is just as bad as not seeing their points of view. Individuals operate very differently if I were to go out and pick at every person one by one I'd get a different answer each time. Both of our arguments make sweeping generalizations I guess.

    To predict the actions of a massive diverse community that keeps itself in check with laws and conflicting groups it is hard to say anything. The only way to know for sure is if an duplicate scenario is replicated, all the way through just with the same brand of stimulus and events that built up to the embassy attacks. Though that would be a bit of a mess for the sake of social science.
     
  9. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Well we just had a big riot in Sydney over this ridiculous internet movie that might not actually exist in any full form. Perhaps it was made deliberately to provoke a response? if so, well done geniuses, several people killed and how much property damaged and people in hospital?

    I'm a fan of multiculturalism. I'm multicultural myself (half asian half Aussie). I've grown up with multicultural friends, Asian, Indian, Greek, Italian etc etc. Australia is a real melting pot and it's great. But there is NO place for this sort of religious behaviour. Integrate or gtfo.

    Migrant communities always stay insular for a while as a defence against the strange ways of their new homeland. That's cool. But then their kids go to local Aussie schools, they become integrated into Aussie society, and soon nobody cares or even notices if the kids surname is Smith, Papadopolous, Italiano, Nguyen or Yeong.

    Multiculturalism only works if migrants are willing to allow this integration for their children. If you're happy to integrate, then welcome aboard. Let me teach you about cricket, footy and barbecues. If not, then you can gtfo as far as I'm concerned.
     
  10. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Well, it's hard to argue for sure that we see more Muslims than any other religion going berserk. Additionally, it doesn't necessarily mean much if we do. Just because we might "see" more Muslim violence on T.V. or wherever, doesn't mean that there actually IS more Muslim violence than other religions. It's also important to note that maybe it's just you who sees this. How do you know for certain that everyone else in the world is seeing more and more Muslims go berserk?

    This is why we shouldn't come to conclusions based on what we see or what we think everyone else in the world sees. Every day since I was born I have looked at the horizon and haven't seen anything to suggest that the world is not flat. It's always looked flat to me no matter where I go. This is what I have seen. No one can argue that. But if I conclude that the world is flat then I would be very much incorrect.

    I'm not saying that Muslim violence hasn't increased or isn't worse than other religions. I'm saying that I simply don't know. And saying that your argument doesn't prove it to be true. I would only make a conclusion if I were to see some analysis done by quite a few different sources that are unbiased. But I'm not going to go by what non-experts believe to be true.
     
  11. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    This is your opinion of the matter. This is not a fact. And it's not an opinion that I necessarily agree with. I could just as easily argue that if you insulted Jesus you would get just as much outrage from Christianity. But that doesn't make either one of us credible.

    Neither of us has provided any factual evidence that is backed up by sources.

    If you would like to convince people that your statement is true then you need to provide some source of information to back up your claims. But I'd doubt their are sources that can truly back this up. For we are discussing the level of one insult to another. How can we quantify if an insult is worse than another insult? We can't.
     
  12. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    While this may be true, there are other things to consider. The video might not be the only reason for the outcry in these countries. Like Tur said, it could have been the final straw. A lot of it could be built up hatred towards the US due to past foreign policy.

    We (Americans) aren't conducting such violent protests because we don't have foreign troops stationed in our country for extended periods or time. This could be part of the reason that many Middle Eastern countries dislike us.

    But anyway, my point, as well as Tur's is that we don't exactly know the full reason why they started these attacks.

    Well I've heard quite a few people outraged, but protesting doesn't seem quite necessary to me seeing as America is responding with military force.


    This is quite the straw man argument here. You have misrepresented what he said. The reason why you don't see the logic, is because you are using fallacious logic to determine the meaning of his post.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  13. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    This is how I feel. I think it was completely stupid for someone to make this film. I also thought it was stupid when the pastor in Florida wanted to burn the Quran a few years ago. But at the same time it's just as stupid to go around starting violent protests in response. And it's completely inexcusable if the protest results in someone's death. I agree with the US response. After the video was released the US embassy in Cairo issued a statement basically saying that they didn't agree with what the video said and that it wasn't in anyway an accurate representation of how the country feels about Islam. But then when the ambassador was killed we basically said, "alright we have to respond with military action now."

    A lot of my friends argue that as long as religion exists we will have violence. But I'm not convinced it's religion, and I'm not convinced not having a belief in religion will stop violence (watch the Nintendo Wii episode of South Park). My belief is that if people would just stop caring so much about what someone else believes we might be able to have a peaceful world.
     
  14. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Again that's not really what Tur is trying to say. But I've already talked about that.

    And yes you are COMPLETELY 100% CORRECT in saying there is no excuse in killing people because they make fun of your religion. And although I have said before that there might be factors other than the movie that caused the protest, I still don't condone violence because of those factors.

    Let's take the 9/11 attacks as an example. I've heard a lot of people throwing around the old claim that America was attacked because the terrorists hate our freedom and democracy. While that would be nice to think that's why we were attacked, it's not exactly true. *I will have to find my sources on this so bear with me; but this is what political scientists will teach you*. The hatred stems from America's foreign policy in the Middle East. Part of it is comes from during the cold war when Soviet Russia was in Afghanistan. America sent in people to arm and train the afghanis to fight off the russians and I can't remember all the facts but this lead to the Taliban having power and apparently they weren't too happy with us leaving forces behind. So began part of the reason to hate western culture which eventually lead to the attacks on 9/11.

    With the end of WWI Germany was basically given the shaft by the winning countries and entered horrible economic crisis. This set the stage for hatred among the citizens of germany and the potential for someone to come in and try to start a new devastating war. And that's basically what happened.

    My point with all of this is that America isn't exactly innocent of having a hand in these situations. But that doesn't justify the violence that followed. In my opinion there was NO justification to kill thousands of innocent people on 9/11. And there was no justification to start a new war to take over the world and exterminate millions of jews.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  15. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    That's a good point. Racism doesn't always mean that one is stupid. But I still think that it was a bad idea to create such a video. And I think it's just as bad an idea to create a video against any religion or non-religion.

    I see friends on my facebook who are atheists. I'm agnostic, and although I respect their beliefs I absolutely can't stand it when they post statuses bashing religion and how they say "religion was just created to make ourselves feel better" or "God doesn't exist." All this does is further contribute to the terrible chain. And the problem is that people CAN stop it. They just have to be willing to be the FIRST to stop.
     
  16. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Here ya go http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/12-photos-of-benghazi-citizens-apologizing-to-amer
     
  17. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread


    What planet are you living on?
    I have a feeling your head is so far up your ass you'll never see the sunrise again.


    Jesus is insulted in every artistic medium imaginable in this country and Europe, on an almost daily basis.

    Try this "factual evidence" on for size... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_(film)

    The Last Temptation of Christ was a big budget Hollywood movie that, among other deviations from the biblical narrative, had a scene wherein Jesus and Mary Magdalene consummate their marriage! This was no silly internet promo for a movie that probably doesn't even exist in full form, it was a real movie that spawned protests and was banned in a handful of countries... the protests were peaceful and nobody died or even were hurt.

    The Christian Bible even confronts the issue of being insulted in the name of Jesus... in fact it says to expect it and that it is a blessing. That's worlds of difference from Islam.
     
  18. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    I don't think hate speech is good but I think it is good that people can say what they want to say, the areas kind of blur over though so you can't have one without the other and not be a little hypocritical or have a long involved set of rules on what sort of speech is allowed.

    Both sides really have to be willing to be the first to stop, the provoker and whoever falls for the provoking are both responsible. I'd say the person who loses their control more so because very frequently people tolerate listening and being told things they dislike, it is kind of a cross culture thing to just ignore the loudmouth who has nothing useful to say.
     
  19. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    And yet every morning I wake up, I am greeted by something other than darkness.

    There is no need for this kind of offensive attack as I have done nothing to attack you.


    This is probably quite true. But I was commenting on the fact that I don't agree with your assessment that "you can say what you will about Jesus and it will barely get a raised eyebrow." I know in my own city that certain movies are banned because they aren't "in line" with Christian teachings: MILK was highly protested, and banned, in my city because it supported Gay Rights. Saved! was another film that was banned in my city because people thought it had an anti-god message.

    I've witnessed countless times where people have more than raised their eyebrows over such phrases as "one nation under god" and "in god we trust" being taken out of the pledge and off the dollar. In fact, there was quite the uproar over the Democratic National Convention excluding the word "God" from their platform.

    And I am sure that there have been countless other protests against slander against Christ. Perhaps the islamic protests have turned out more violent but I haven't really seen the numbers on that. Even if that's true, Christian protests have not been without violence....

    1. You only show one example of people reacting to "blasphemous" statements about Jesus. Surely one protest does no account for all others

    2. You said "The protests were peaceful and nobody died or even were hurt." Well your own link disagrees with that. Apparently people attacked the Saint Michel theater, Paris and threw Molotov Cocktails resulting in people being injured. This doesn't convince me.

    How do you know this is worlds of difference from Islam? Can you show me where in the Quran that insult is treated in such a different fashion?


    Look, I'm not trying to come off as an arse here. And if I have then I apologize. I'm not saying that Christians are much more outrageous, or violent, than Muslims when it comes to being insulted. I'm not here trying to simply defend Islam and all Muslims while bashing Christianity and all of its followers. I am, however, trying to point out to you that the outrage from Christians over insults and blasphemy isn't necessarily as small as you think.


    EDIT: I also wanted to say that I agree with your previous statement that this says something about our Western Cultures. It's a good point, in my opinion. And I think it applies to not only Christianity but to Islam and other religions as well. While there is violence from fanatical religious protesters, from my point of view at least, it doesn't seem to be nearly as bad in the "Western culture". And I could be wrong but from my own personal knowledge I haven't seen many violent protests from Christians or Muslims in America. I'm sure there are Muslims in America who are outraged by the video but I haven't heard anything about them becoming violent. Maybe it's more of a case of cultures rather than religion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  20. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Well I absolutely agree. There's always two things we have to be clear on with this subject: 1) Legality of the issue 2) "Morality" of the issue.

    In legal terms, at least in the US, freedom of speech is probably one of the most protected freedoms. But it doesn't come without limits. You can't yell "bomb" in a crowded movie theater. You can't harass someone with threats of violence or sexual assault. There are, of course, other limitations.

    But there is never any limitation on one's opinion. We are free to express our opinions quite openly and freely. But, as you said, there are areas that are kind of blurry. While groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, WBC, have every right to say that homosexuality is wrong, and that people are going to hell, a lot of people (myself included) feel that their protesting of funerals is borderline harassment. But the supreme court didn't see it that way. But again that's neither "here" nor "there"; it's just an example of where the line can get blurry.

    With this controversial video about Islam, the filmmaker had every right to express his opinion on the religion. He hasn't done anything wrong in expressing his opinion and should not in anyway be prosecuted because of it.

    But from our "morality" standpoint the question is whether or not he should have done this. In my opinion he should not have. I think it was a distasteful move. He probably knows fully well how sensitive people are to religion; so why try and spark controversy?

    You are absolutely right about that as well, in my opinion. Someone has to be willing to take the first step. And I think it all comes down to whoever decides to be the better person and just let things go.