Islamic Debate

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Sparrow, Sep 13, 2012.

  1. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Calling the Middle East home to Islam is a little misguided.

    And people in these same nations who are currently rebelling have endlessly burnt American flags and effigies of US presidents. I haven't seen the West react very negatively. Hell, they killed our ambassador and I don't see any American protests.. what's your point? Someone can't make a movie making fun of a religion? Would you be saying the same thing if it was the embassy of your country being attacked? (the answer is no, you wouldn't. you, like a lot of people, just want to blame this all on the US. I don't really see the logic in it.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2012
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Are you asking me?
     
  3. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    That doesn't make any sense... you moved a thread to spam... and then moved it out of spam and deleted the posts that were posted while it was in spam on account of being spam?

    and no foin i was asking tur
     
  4. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread


    Call me naive but I still say it boils down to large cultural differences. The US has had dissidents in every area and plenty of countercultures, trash talking messiahs here wouldn't cause riots with arson involved. I think it has to do with the availability to connect with technology and the lack of exposure and conflict these countries haven't faced.

    Like the first time you see something obscene and gross it shocks you and you feel insulted, but after awhile it grows on you and you don't really care. I think exposure to a different more broad culture has just caused a return of culture shock. Perhaps the US would react the same way if our history was completely different but everybody already knows about verstehen.

    In general it is hard to blame people for their actions across the board. How people were raised, where they were raised, and their emotions are to blame for this chaos, but those things are out of anybody's control. Adapting to new ideas is a gradual process, I can't blame some of the people for their rage, but violence is always unacceptable.
     
  5. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    No one is blaming anyone here.

    I really don't see anyone at fault for this. I think the people who made the movie were extremely misguided and more than likely, stupid. I think the people rioting are overreacting. But seriously? We've had problems with the Middle-East for how long, and then some idiot goes and makes a movie, provoking more mistrust and hatred?

    Not a smart move.
     
  6. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    It sounds a bit like Tur is blaming the US... I don't know.

    And it's really pathetic. Someone makes a movie making fun of your religion so you kill people? There's really no excuse for that. Cultural relativism isn't an excuse for everything.
     
  7. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    I don't think the filmmaker was stupid, consider the possibilities from there perspective. As an example I'll use my grandfather. My grandfather was a great man who led a mostly good lawful life, but he was a little racist towards black people, but consider that he was a cop during the Detroit riots. An experience that likely stuck with him that he only started to soften up with and open his mind as he lived longer to experience more.

    Perhaps the filmmaker had a sour taste because of the acts of some deviants within Islam and it led to the same thing. It leads to a vicious chain where rioters almost do a mirror move that would be just as justified. It is a terrible chain where nobody can be the first to stop.
     
  8. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    I hear that google is refusing to take the video down despite requests from the White House but they have banned it in several countries. What do you think. Good or bad move by google?
     
  9. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    Your grandpa came from a different time, as did mine. I don't know almost any older people who aren't a little racist.

    But I don't think that's an excuse. You don't see our grandparents making films or doing things that will only result in more hatred.
     
  10. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    As much as I hate to say it, good move.

    Now is a good time to fight for our censorship rights. If that video was taken down, it'd be the beginning of our censorship.
     
  11. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    But I'm just using it as comparison of the concept. If something traumatizes you in a negative way you don't really have any control over reverting back to normal other than letting time prove you wrong. I still feel like we're missing lots of the motivations behind why the filmmakers did it. I don't think things are black and white and people do things purely out of malicious hatred. Something causes hate and nothing will change unless we target the causation rather than obsess over aftermath.

    While it is hard to detach and not blame somebody, future incidents can be prevented if things can be understood by their roots. And I'm with Liv on hating to say it is a good move. Once media control begins who draws the line for that is allowed and how long will the enforcing last are dangerous concerns for everybody to worry about.
     
  12. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe this is my hubris kicking in, but I don't agree that if something traumatizes you in a negative way that you don't have any control over reverting back to normal other than letting time prove you wrong. I had something extremely traumatizing happen to me, and I fought to get back to where I was before. It did take some time, but not even a 10th of as long as it should have taken. I overcame the natural urge to be scared of a certain type of people. To hate all of those people. No, I just hate the person that traumatized me, but I don't lump in every single person like that person just because they were born with the same genetics.

    It's foolish and ignorant to hate all of any race, gender, culture, or religion just based on your experience. Hell, I'd hate all Polish people just because of my ex and his family and all their family-friends if I was like that. That's just not right.
     
  13. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Still not all people have the strength, motivation, or need to overcome their limits. It all becomes a very subjective mess. But tracing things back can lead to more general understandable causes. Really the people involved in the movie would need heavy consoling and proof against their biases for things to be made quicker. But then they could then go into denial or feel perfectly sound thinking what they think and see nothing harmful about it.
     
  14. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree with you, but the thing is, I don't see trauma as a viable excuse for spreading hatred. Maybe it's just because I watched Bambi as a child and was taught that if I didn't have anything nice to say, not to say anything at all.
     
  15. Padmé

    Padmé Mrs Cascador

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    I think people need to look at all of this from a balanced perspective. People tend to look at pictures like Foin posted a few pages back and think that is the norm for Islam. What utter crap. It's just the negative that gets publicized all the time, but it's understandable.

    If I was to base my opinion on Islam entirely on experience from my life only then it would be nothing but positive. My oldest and dearest friend whom I have known since we were in nursery together is Muslim, and her and her family are some of the nicest people I have ever met. I even knew their extended family to aunts, uncle, cousins, because my brother was friends with a cousin of hers, so we suddenly started seeing almost all of her family lol Now, despite the fact that they knew our family was 'atheist', and to a Muslim, this is worse than being a member of any other religion other than Islam, they never treated us differently, and were always extremely kind and generous. I will never forget when I saw her aunt casually, and without any reference to what she was doing, buy soft drinks, four giant pizzas from Pizza Hut when we were there, then proceed to take it outside and give it to a group of homeless people who were sitting just a few shops down. My friend just shrugged and said her aunt always does this when they go out eating, but I had never seen something like that in my life, and I haven't since then. And later in high school, we befriended another girl who was also Muslim, and she certainly came from a stricter background in both upbringing and religious nature, but she is still to me one of the sweetest individuals I have met. And yet, despite the media's perception of Islam and it's 'intolerance', I have witnessed far more white Christian people being racist towards Muslims than the other way around. In fact, I recall no time where I have seen a Muslim insult a Christian, Hindu etc. I was very protective over my friends when we were growing up, because whenever they were insulted by passersby, they would say nothing, whereas I used my colourful language to its full capacity. So that is my experience with Islam, and it is very different than what the TV shows, but of course it is different. On TV we are seeing the actions of extremists. Just like Christians killing abortionists in the name of 'Pro-Life' are not the norm, neither are Muslims as in the pictures earlier displayed. You cannot judge people collectively based on religion or race. It is absolutely wrong and a root of evil, in my opinion. Hate the actions of extremists, don't hate the religion they claim to fight for.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
  16. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    I'm getting sick of this now. Now even here in Australia, in Sydney there has been violent and bloody protests. Why is it that whenever there is a Islamic "peaceful" protest it always ends up in blood, violence and riot police? Can they not act civil at all? It was a film. Not only that but an extremely crappy film. There has been thousands of films and TV episodes made mocking Jesus and God in some way or another, but there has never been such childish behavior in such a large mass as this. I know it's not the same since there's no law against depicting Jesus in images but still this is just ridiculous. People are dying. I've never really held anything against Islam as a whole but after this childish and shocking behavior I'm starting to question that.
     
  17. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Personally I think muslims need to chill as many moderates do of course. Most of the world has freedom of speech / expression, freedom of choice of religion and don't particpate in violent rioting or kill/stone/sentence to death people when a view contrary to their own is expressed. If someone posts something offensive, they're the ones with the problem and should face legal action if it's an incitement to violence, racist or whatever. Only the illiterate and intolerant would tar another nation or the whole of western civilisation because of the actions of a miniscule minority. The fact that people are fighting and dying over religious works of fiction (imho) is sickening.

    Egypt, Libya, Sudan, Tunisia & Yemen (& others) governments need to step up to the plate and maintain order in their countries. If the moderates in these countries can't prevail then Islam, the fastest growing religion, could well prove a ticking time bomb for world peace.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    No it isn't. Muhammad was an Arabian and all the holy cities of Islam are in the Middle East. That stuff counts for Muslims, apparently.

    Ok, first. A few years ago, the local nutter made a movie about Islam. Fitna, it was called. It was really stupid and was very Islam critical. It showed some of the Jylland Posten cartoons, pointed out Muhammad was a pedophile, sought to prove that Islam was a very aggressive religion. The movie was announced way ahead and Dutch politicians and diplomats were fearing the worst. Yes, they expected Embassies to be overrun, expats to be abducted, Dutch property in Islamic countries to be burnt. We had all reason to believe they would.

    The pictures Foin posted earlier are from that time. Yes, there were protests. There were boycotts on Dutch products. Dutch flags were burnt. Embassies were picketed. Al-Quaeda made threads. But, in all, things remained pretty peaceful.

    Now, a US movie maker does more or less the same and embassies are burning. Tell me what that means. This is not about Islam per se. This is about the gut-wrenching feeling that the order of the world has been made up, and you don't count for jack shit. And there's nothing you can do about it. As it happens, Islam is very clear about what to do with people who insult it. It's become the flag to rally behind.

    I think it's crucial to understand this, when regarding the current protests.

    No... Americans are head-strong people. As it happens, they are top of the food chain. Currently, there's very little to worry about for them, but that hasn't always been the case. And they truly fear it won't be the case anymore in the future. Imagine how life would be if another dominant power obliterated the hegemony and raced past the US as being Ahead. And then invaded the US to take its resources and leave it as a failed state. Americans being as they are, armed to the teeth, would naturally guerrilla against foreign invaders and installed governments. It would probably show itself from its most aggressive and ugly side, don't you think? I think that would be constitutional, in a sense.

    And then that same foreign power would go about insulting the Bible and Jesus in a Baidu film. Or Steve Jobs and Apple. Or whatever the symbol would be. Now, ask yourself. Would the embassy of that foreign power burn?
     
  19. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    I think we have to understand that most of these protests/riots are happening in fledgling democracies, these people have been screened from western culture and brainwashed their entire lives. What they don't understand is that freedom and democracy are messy, turbulent things... that's the beauty of it. How many westerners don't fully appreciate freedom of speech and expression?

    What we're seeing in these North African and Middle Eastern countries is 18-35 year old men, most of which are unemployed, blaming America for their troubles. On top of that you have people who merely use America as a lightning rod to further their own ambitions. As an American I'm damn proud these people hate me and my country, it would be quite disconcerting if they behaved differently. It would mean we're doing something very wrong.



    There seems to be some discussion concerning Utopias and whether it's possible to attain a Utopian society, so I guess I'll chime in... I think you need to go back in history and understand that Thomas More was satirizing the entire concept of an ideal society of man. He meant 'Utopia' to mean "good place that is no place", or simply "no place". H.G.Wells' The Time Machine depicts utopia as a slow degeneration of humankind, sort of like an idealistic community of communists. In this Utopia would you have music with balls, movies and books that made your blood boil or that could break your heart? Of course not. I think if you take the highs and lows away from life you're only left with mediocrity. Where do all the best rock bands come from... Britain and the USA, the two most dynamic and free societies in the world. The only Utopian society I can think of is Canada, and the best they can do is Rush and Bryan Adams... those guys suck.

    If Utopia is a kind of paradise than you have lost the freedom to choose the opposite of paradise.
     
  20. Anrisa Ryn

    Anrisa Ryn Author, artist, gamer

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    Well I think google did the right thing b/c of the support of free speech. I mean, I would have taken it down if it would calm the violence, but I'm all for stopping killing. That's not to say that google isn't, but I try to make people happy more than myself I suppose.