Islamic Debate

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Sparrow, Sep 13, 2012.

  1. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    This is the thread where we prove freedom of speech and expression trumps religious fanaticism...


    Historians now know that the Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2012
  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Free speech for the dumb :)

    I moved this thread to spam, since this thread doesn't seek to debate.



    Free speech only goes so far, though. We have a set of Rules and Guidelines on TFF. I expect everyone to respect them, especially Posting No. 1 and Behaviour No. 1, 2 and 3.
     
  3. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    It is a tragedy that they don't seem to understand that people are free to think whatever they want and you can't really defeat a mentality even with embassy raids. Kind of speaks to their lack of understanding to the real world beyond their minds. And how good is a prophet if the prophet can't even take trash talk? If I were a prophet I wouldn't give a hoot if somebody called me a farthead because I know that I'm already a darn prophet.


    Bah, right when I try to make things more serious you go ahead and move the thread Tur. I guess if it was going to be a debate thread it would probably need a different title.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  4. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread



    Exactly, one would expect the messenger of God to be above such insults.

    It also says something for our various western cultures... you can say what you will about Jesus and it will barely get a raised eyebrow. We have writers aplenty producing books against the christian religion, we have stage plays on Broadway that don't exactly put Jesus in a fair light, and pop stars and comedians make sport of the Savior all the time... but you dare not say anything against Muhammad or you're accused of inciting a riot and suddenly held responsible for the aftermath.
     
  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    I'm not a muslim,but in a forum with people of various religions and of course various cultural origins and backgrounds,this thread is a no no.Although I doubt that any muslims that are in TFF will post a reply,making a thread to openly mock a religion followed by hundreds of millions of people,that is just not right.
     
  6. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Yet again the same argument we had before in the religion thread. Religion doesn't deserve automatic respect. I can respect the followers of the religion but I don't have to give validity to what they think when there is not a shred of tangible real proof and nor can their be for their beliefs. Also being serious all the time is deadly in itself, if people could understand jokes and how little their word should really mean to others perhaps the collective blood pressure of our species would plummet and there would be less attacks because other people have opinions.

    I respect someone's right to have an opinion but not the opinion itself in summary.
     
  7. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    No certain thing that someone loves or believes in deserves respect, like Yuan said, it's the peoples that deserve respect (until they have proved themselves unworthy).

    There are many religious people that I have absolutely no respect for because they have belittled me or others because I or the others do not believe in the same thing. I've also defended many religious people because they don't do those things. I have many Muslim friends who would look at this thread and go "The prophet is above this." and move on. I also know many Muslim people that would look at this thread and have a conniption fit.

    I personally could care less. Free speech is fine and all, but why use to inflict pain or ignite anger? Instead we should use to bring forth things like hope, love, and peace. Then again, this is making me sound like an idealist, so I'll just slay that filthy unicorn and move on :)
     
  8. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    As a different kind of idealist I think people shouldn't ever let free speech make them angry. They should slow down and consider who is talking and why, ulterior motives or things they intend on accomplishing, their preexisting biases or lack of exposure to situations. And also that it ultimately boils down to opinions, which old little objective value.
     
  9. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Make sure to harvest it's blood.
     
  10. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    I think its human nature to get upset when someone launches an assault on one's core values and belittle them for it. If you want to believe in Mohammed as a great prophet be my guest. If you want to worship leprechauns, go ahead too. I'm not saying that things should be above questioning, but letting any kind of speech slide I have to disagree with.
     
  11. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Utopias are impossible, sometimes we have to hear the things we hate to hear but at least we have the right to say what we want. I dislike the idea of any kind of censorship because it is just like fussily shutting out the world instead of bearing the burden of reality.

    I'd rather suffer hate than show an ounce of respect to something that I can't attach any worth to. And human nature while terribly flawed shouldn't be used as an excuse. By realizing the suffering and viewpoints of others retaliating is absolutely pointless. Especially violent aggressive retaliation.
     
  12. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Could not agree more.

    Also, when people use the "the world sucks, get used to it" excuse to do shitty stuff. That pisses me off to no end.
     
  13. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    I disagree. tearing people down for no reason other than their own amusement is pointless. Making your viewpoint known is another topic entirely. There is a difference between having a conversation discussing one's view for the consideration of another and trying to force your view on someone else. Who's reality? Yours? Why is yours the only one worth considering? Everyone gets to use the same argument and you end up with a pointless shouting match and a bunch of angry people.
     
  14. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Force my view? I'm not going to tell people what to think, I'm just not going to respect everything they say they think especially if they impose it with the threat of violence.

    Don't get me started on perceptions and definitions of realities. It is impossible to fully understand what somebody perceives and thinks and what led them in their life to think the way they do, therefore one shouldn't force them to respect a prophet or try to bend them any way.

    The only reality you can guarantee and know entirely is your own, nobody should be able to push their thoughts or their moral bar onto your reality because chances are they don't know you personally and don't have a remote idea of what your reality may be like.
     
  15. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Well, now you have them trying to force their view with a more extreme method of control, which is also wrong, in my opinion. I'm not saying that you have to respect their prophet, I'm saying I don't see the point in tearing down an individual with slurs.

    Also, I don't mean to use human nature as an excuse. Saying one is just like something doesn't excuse an action, however people do tend to follow it and knowing that is useful to avoid unfavorable outcomes. I don't mean to be afraid of speaking one's mind, I think the prophet Mohammed should be as open to criticism as Yeshua has been, I just don't see the point in doing it in certain ways that lend towards hostility rather than learning.
     
  16. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    I never slurred their prophet because I don't need to because I don't believe there are any prophets. But there is no excuse for violent retaliation based on words somebody has said. It is brazen, and senseless.

    The radicals are attacking the idea of free speech, all because they don't know how to handle their tempers or see the world as a whole where not everybody thinks the way they do. Speech is a double edged like all things but if you try define what side is good and bad it could lead to distant problems.
     
  17. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Right. This turned into a debate anyway.

    I'm putting it back on Debating - but that means it's no spam about how best to insult the Prophet.
     
  18. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    I wasn't saying that you did personally, more along the lines of the basis of the thread and what you seemed to be defending. Perhaps I misunderstand your position. There isn't really excuse for violence based on words, especially distant words from halfway across the world, certainly. Though in a face to face confrontation it is easy to slide into. Like I said, none is above the critics. If Yeshua has been criticized as much as He has I don't see the reason why anyone can't take a little criticism of their favorite prophet. I just think it all depends on how its done. It's a little different to say that 'a white* man walked into a bar' than it is to say that 'a honkey* walked into a bar', is it not?

    *substitute for whatever race/religion/what-have-you. being white it seems less offensive to pick on my own in this regard. Intended to make a point only.

    Thanks Turambar!
     
  19. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    I think that we can fight human nature. I know you're not using it as an excuse, but when you get down to the core of it, why get upset when someone belittles your beliefs? I get made fun of a lot for what I believe in nowadays. I just laugh and let it go. Though when I used to be a Catholic I would fight with people who said hateful things about me to my religion. I've just learned that there's no point. Sure, it still annoys me when someone is disrespectful toward what I believe, or if they are rude to me simply because I don't believe what they do... but I fight the urge to slander or slap. Humans let their human nature ruin and rule them, and it usually ends poorly.

    I do agree that letting any kind of speech slide is not beneficial. Some things that people can do with their words are just as damaging to the soul as punch to the face is to the body.

    The only reason Utopias are impossible is because humans don't wake up and see the way the world could be if we all just got along and put the bad parts of our human nature beside us.

    I do not agree with censorship at all, but I don't think that the freedom of speech with lack of censorship should be used to hurt other people. By allowing people to be outwardly offensive toward others through the internet (movies, videos, music, etc), we are no better than the countries that do use censorship. I know of a young girl who killed herself because people were incessantly sending her messages online telling her she was ugly, stupid, and that she should just kill herself because everyone hated her anyway. Granted, that is not nearly the same thing as insulting a prophet who is long dead, but it's hate speech, none the less, and shouldn't be tolerated.

    I can agree completely with this. People don't seem to realize that their reality is different than other people's reality. This girl on my facebook posted yesterday about how she stood up in her evolution class and talked about god, thinking she was brave for defending her religion, when all she really did was try to push her reality on other people by disrupting class. Not only that, but she ignores hard scientific evidence in place for a god that she can't stand to see dismissed, when all she has to do is open her eyes and see that if her god was all powerful, he could create evolution as well. But that is another debate entirely.

    I can also agree completely with this. We also often forget what shapes other people's realities. It makes me sad that the shaping of those realities is often too forceful to ever see past, and to let other people live the way they live in peace.

    I think one of the main issues with Mohammed being slandered is that Islam is a fairly new religion, only a thousand and a few hundred years old. Granted, Christianity is only about 2000 years old, but a lot can happen in 600 years. While Catholicism and Orthodoxy are still very traditional, Islam is even more traditional than those two sects of Christianity. Give it another 600 years and the majority of Muslims more than likely will brush off insults to their prophet. After knowing many more "modern" Muslims than I know strictly "traditional" Muslims, I can see this already happening. Soon they will be with the rest of the world's religions, though, you will always have extremists.

    I think the main issue is where do you draw the line between free speech and hate speech, how do you draw it, and how do you contain it?
     
  20. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Re: The Insult Prophet Muhammad Thread

    Thanks Tur.

    I think free speech is important even if it is hateful because free speech packages both insults and epiphanies, and there is a blurry line between what is good and bad to say and when so it is best just to allow most of it. That is the just of why I was defending their Muhammad revenge heyday as much as I dislike revenge and hate talk, it is their human right to have opinions.

    I don't think it is as much about how it is done but who it is done to. Like I said people all have different backgrounds and realities but some are less open or more localized. I think there is a large cultural gap between an opinionated American citizen and a bloodthirsty embassy rioter and their interpretation of free speech, how to react to it, and cultural awareness.

    I may be biased towards brazen free speech but I think it is more progressive than trying to control what people are allowed to say, sure there is a time and place, but when a thousand people call for the death of all American citizens because one of them has a loud mouth is overkill.

    I wonder if this is the first instance where some of these rioters have had contact with the digital realm and the vast mess of different ideas that aren't exactly theirs.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Edit:
    From what I know about utopias, they are heavily dependent on media control and therefore freedom of speech. At least what Socrates said, I don't know much about modern utopia theories. There is also a fine line between hate speech and aggressive criticizing speech. Sometimes the realization of hate can be good for doing away with bad things. Do I think people should hate more, no. But I do think they should have the ability to if things go sour. I'm less well versed with smaller scale applications of what I say though, I tend blind to larger scale stuff, so I can't say much about online bullying, I'm just saying hate helps against corruption and ending suffering from being passive to a harmful system to a population.

    I just got your bit about drawing the line about hate speech and that is just what I covered. I don't think a single person should be in charge of drawing the line, but also I don't think hate speech should be entirely seen as a bad thing. Positive speech can be just as dangerous, much of it is scenario based so I think there are some things best left near being rule-less.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2012