Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by azuren82, Mar 17, 2009.
@ Foi: Why not China?
I don't know,I don't see China as a threat.
In relationship to Muammar Ghadaffi:
His son is due on trial in Switzerland. Since, Ghadaffi is probing the Swiss gouvernment for weaknesses. The fatwa on Jihad should be viewed in that context - and that context only.
I am out again, until Foinikas provides us with context around the pictures he posted.
Yeah Gadafi's son from what I heard on the news did something in Switzerland,he got arrested or something.
Turambar is snubbing me again!Context,context,context.What do you want from my life?
Look at them.They wanna jihad your nederlander town!
You gotta take all these immigration problems and the fanatic muslims protests a bit more seriously!
Well, Foin. I didn't say I don't take it seriously.
But I'd rather look for the root cause. Personally, I don't believe that's Islam. I think it's about equality and sense of inferiority. People don't like being treated as inferior - it's a human trait. Still, we completely fail in recognising the equality of our Muslim brethren.
Please understand that you are contributing to this schism in society, the way you are going around with this, Foin. And, in that sense, you, in your own little way, contribute to the escalation of the Islamic problem. It is my sincere opinion that we should fight this urge of fear and seek out dialogue with the people holding up these signs. Or, rather, the people who don't hold up these signs, but feel supportive of these acts regardless. Visit your local coffee house tomorrow, Foin. They say the coffee is pretty good there
Extremists of any religion are always a problem. Regardless of their point, but it does not sum up all of them.
There are extremists, so called, Pro-Life supporters who murder Abortionists.... Pro-Life? A few cells being removed is more important than actual conscious people with families and loved ones. But is that to say that all Pro-Life people think it is all right to murder Abortionists? No.
So it's a little irrelevant to speak of Islam and only focus on the highly negative, cause that can be applied to absolutely anything. Any religion. Extremists suck, and they are plastered all over the media and give the wrong impression. Some of my closest friends, and in fact my best friend is Muslim, known her all my life, and she hates extremists just as much as the rest of us.
People who murder innocents to make a point in anything, are the problem. The fact they think it is reasonable to do so, is the problem. Why they are doing it is subtext. It is mere negative human behaviour. We feel it necessary to divide ourselves into groups. What gender are you? What colour are you? What town are you from? What country? What nation? What football team do you support? What religion are you? Any illogical person can turn any of the answers to these questions into bloody violence. But not everyone does.
So our job is to put things into perspective. And we can't do that by being entirely one sided.
My friend Turambar I will reply to your comments right now:
All people are supposed to be treated equal,although in most muslim societies even in modern history that is not the case.Of course people don't like to be treated as inferior and the West with all the wars in the middle-east and not helping the Palestinians gain their former pre-1967 state contributes to the escalation of anti-western feelings and hatred.
As for calling muslims our "brethren" is not something I agree with.They are not my brothers,some muslims can be my friends,but for most such muslims as the ones in the photos above you are not their brother either,you are a "kufaar" or an infidel.
Turambar,you know how many times I argued with Justice and some others against the occupation of Palestine.You know that I generally had pro-Palestinian views and although neutral in this conflict generally,I supported the right of the Palestinians to have their own country and live free as all people should.
I know muslims who are very good and excellent people like some friends from where I study,like my teacher in Arabic,like my eye-doctor and other people like some friends I used to have or have on the net(mostly girls though).
However after watching many videos on the net and reading things about the wars in Bosnia,Chechnya,Afghanista,Iraq and other places and while seeing all these photos that I posted above I got sick of all that stuff.I mean...my country is getting full of illegal and/or legal immigrants from Albania,Pakistan,Iraq,Afghanistan and elsewhere.
Albanians in Kosovo have proceeded in an ethnic cleansing against the Serbs under UN "protection".European countries are having more and more such radical muslims as you can see in the protests.
I just stopped thinking that Islam is the victim of all this story.Good muslims are the victims of some prejudice,but I simply think it's just stupid of letting all of these fanatics protest in the streets of European countries with such placads and messages of hate towards the West which is actually their new home.
Difference being that extremely right wing religious fanatics who kill abortion doctors can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand, maybe two. Iraq can't even hold an election without suicide bombers killing 35 people.
This protest sign is a little lighter. In California schools are about to get huge budget cuts and teacher layoffs (good. We have some of the worst schools in the nation. Fire all the bad teachers and let them live on the streets). People supporting a socialist style agenda, promoting the "Never can be fired" teachers union showed up to rallies across the state.
Yeah, we don't need better education, that's for sure.
Nothing to do with Islam, just a hilarious signage fail.
Not to mention Afghanistan where the Taliban threatened to cut the hands(if not the heads as well)of those who were gonna vote.
And while we have large parts of muslim population who are moderate,nice and peaceful people,unfortunately there are large(or maybe even larger?)parts of muslim population who are just like those in the photos I posted above.
Well, a couple of things;
Islamic states don't constitute or equate muslim society. Most of them are dictatorships. And Christian dictatorships are no better or worse. It's got very little to do with Islam. The populace within a dictatorship generally tend to nod or keep their heads down; whichever is appropriate.
The demonstrations you showed have very little to do with that discussion, though. The pictures gave me the impression the majority were taken in England. Muslims in England feel marginalised through the rising nationalism and sentiment and fear against Islam. This is what I meant in my previous post. They react to the way society treats them, or so I guess. Considering Newton's Third Law, things must be pretty bad as well...
But again; PLEASE post the picture's context. We can't discuss them the way they are.
You continue to see the state of affairs as action; not reaction. History will show that just about everything is a reaction (see Newton's Third again). If you can't find the action that triggers the reaction, you're probably not trying hard enough
Well, Islam IS the victim. Islam is used as a banner under which to unite and fight. It's what binds these people and, by this, is transformed. And, through this transformation, it is recognised as an enemy, afflicting those who has nothing to do with the struggle.
But I will repreat; these ralleys, the radicalisation is the result of marginalisation and the struggle for identity in those who are attracted to it. Or so is my opinion anyway. Give these people the space to be themselves and the need for radicalisation rapidly declines. Now, there's a clear gap between society and individuals; but, it starts with me. And every person who understands this.
There's no question as to who bothered the bee nest,wars in Afghanistan,Iraq,support of Israel and basically doing nothing to help the Palestinians form their own nation.All that.
This is the action as you say.And the reaction is the above.
However,the last few years the muslims who live in Europe(let's put aside the masses of even more fanatics who live in muslim countries)have been asking for more and more rights.
Some demanded Shariah law for Britain...or others as you see in the photos for Netherlands.
Already Islam is slowly being re-established in Europe through the Balkans.
Well, as I have said, I don't believe that the recent wars indeed are the reason for radicalisation in the West. Of course, it isn't exactly helping - but I remain with the general feeling of misery in the radicalising individuals.
The Wars may have been a catalyst though...
How far back do you think the problem goes then?To 1948 or earlier?
There is no singular problem, as far as I consider.
Tension between the East and the West are as old as... well, as old as Islam, really. The disbanding of the Ottoman Empire and British control of the Middle East following WWI is an important seed of the current tension, though.
The situation in western-European countries possibly started in Maastricht; when the European Union decided to grow towards a federation, albeit a loose one. Since then, Europeans, pretty much all of them, live in a constant identity crisis. Now, the influx from Muslim countries had become a notable situation. But 9/11 exploded the situation.
Regarding women's rights in the Muslim lands...
Just yesterday, I finished reading the original "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley. Throughout the book she was quite generous with social commentary. One very minor character was a young woman who was saved by an enlightened German fellow from having to return to Turkey, where the followers of "Mahomet" would keep her, as a woman, in relative slavery. The book was written 190 years ago.
Well, female rights weren't exactly developed 190 years ago.
Can't say I've read the book - but I suspect neither of the societies would stand comparison with their contemporary counterparts...
There was a time when Islam was a much milder religion than, say, Catholicism. That time was known as the Middle Age, and catholics were barbarian and commited despicable acts of "terrorism" in the name of God or Jesus Christ. At that time, Islams were civilized and had no such extremists (to my knowledge, at least).
Now, this islam terrorists are, in a way, in the Middle Ages, not of technology, but of mentality.
Why so? Maybe partly because they fear the power of globalization, and it's social-cultural consequences, partly because they fear a loss of influence (those who wield power, don't take kindly to losing it).
There are probably some reasons so obscure, that go deep in geopolitical influence and other similar reasons. The thing is, religion is only the tip of the iceberg, because it bears a lot of importance, but more so because it is under the influence of other spheres that bear even more importance.
Separate names with a comma.