Islam: an excuse or victim?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by azuren82, Mar 17, 2009.

  1. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Really? You go back a thousand years to find something comparable? You have to go back to a brutal age where EVERYONE, the religious and non religious alike, partook in an era of war and expansionism? If anything that's an admission the Muslim mindset is stuck centuries in the past.

    The interesting thing about groups like the IRA is that their actions were directly contradictory to their religions. Violent people have always twisted religion to their values, rather than allow the guidelines of a religion change them. The unfortunate thing about Islam is the "World vs. Islam" mindset. These protest signs simply are written words of what they speak daily.

    Even with wacko Christian groups, like the Westboro Baptist church, for every 1 wacko you will find 100 Christians that will reprimand and speak out against the nutjobs. Good luck finding even a 1:1 ratio of Muslims that will critisize other Muslims.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    You know I really believe you can do that and I was 100% that someone would say that,it was expected and I know there are some nasty Christians out there,but there are 3 main differences:

    1.They go don't to muslim countries shouting hatred slogans.
    2.They don't go to live as immigrants in muslim countries stating that they want to conquer them.
    3.I don't know what's going on in USA,but most of these photos,if not all,are from European countries.It's really concerning coming to think that these are actually supposed to be citizens of Britain,France,Netherlands,Denmark,Sweden,Germany,Spain,Austria,Beligum etc.

    Want more?


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Notice what those slogans say.

    The title for all these pictures could be:

    COMING SOON IN YOUR CITY!
     
  3. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Dear god, if British muslims are willing to stand on the streets of their new country waving placards like that, it's no wonder they have so much opposition from the western majority. I knew there was major division and tension, but whoa baby. I had no idea it was THAT overt.

    They insult the police, knowing full well that they won't be arrested or have their heads kicked in like would probably happen in whatever country they left behind. You left somewhere because it was not a good place to live. Why turn your new home into another version of your old home?!?!?
     
  4. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    It's called having your cake and eating it too, like socialist professors that rail against the capitalist system while making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, or flying around in jet planes telling everyone else they need to stop driving cars because they're polluting too much.
     
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  5. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Foin, context please.

    These pictures are meaningless as they are.
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Lol like our Socialist politicians who are richer than the average rich Joe.

    Turambar,meaningless photos?We're talking about Islam excuse or victim,it's worth mentioning how many of these people who live among us and mostly among YOU Western Europeans,act and think like.

    Check some more of these "peaceful" protesters:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Pay attention to the following photos:


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Well what do you say?Shariah for the Netherlands?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
  7. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Speaking as someone in Britain who has seen the whole islam4uk thing blow over this is exactly what it looks like, picking and choosing the worst examples, these are nothing but an unrepresentatively small group trying to use media outrage to make their cause seem mainstream.

    and Justice, finding a 1:1 ratio of islamic extremists to non-extremists isnt hard at all. I've met plenty and I've yet to find one extremist.
     
  8. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    as Crusader said: It's not as if you go out and bump into a group of those extremist folks every day.
    And I think that it's a a minority really, that states those slogans and tries to get media attention. I don't get the point of those extremist guys either, but I still believe that most people who fled their country are trying to live peacefully in their new home.


    @Foinikas
    : Turambar is totally right. You are posting pictures of extremist Islamists, of naiv followers, of english slogans which their carriers probably don't understand.
    That is as if you were posting pictures from the Nazi convention 2 weeks ago in Dresden and tell us, that Germany is voting for the Nazis and Hitler once again.
    It does not at all represent the situation as a whole, it does exactly what the media does: Those pictures spread panic and fear over a supposed muslim take-over. They're like Propaganda and you support it.
    Against your pictures I could post pictures of my Muslim neighbor who cleans the street every saturday and cuts his hedge better than any other neighbor here. Or of him and his wife going to work and of his kids going to school and succeeding with good grades. Or of his kids playing with german kids, explaining why they believe in Allah etc.

    Could it be- Foin- that your background- the conflict between the ethnic groups in Greece- influences your "radical" opinion?! Give it a thought...


    As for the original topic, excuse or victim:
    As with all religions, the Islam has been used to justify acts of murder, terrorism and evil deeds. And as is right with all religions: It's not the book or the belief that makes men evil, but the circumstances under which they live and the voices they listen to.
    And the circumstances in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan etc, are not the best to live under right now, so don't be surprised, when they give birth to bad people.
    The biggest Muslim country in the world however is Indonesia and people from there seldom end up in the news being called a terrorist.
    So I really can't come to the conclusion Muslim = bad.
     
  9. Zymbaline

    Zymbaline Your Muse

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    If some people can't handle their religion in a proper way, they shouldn't be religious.
    Just sayin'.
     
  10. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I can post photos of my Arab friends too.I can show you photos of me with my Arab friends.I can show you photos of me studying Arabic.Or even me dressed as an Arab.I can show you photos of Persian girls that I used to talk with.But that's not the point.The point is the photos.
    Yes,they can read what placads say,because they are citizens of the European Union since they are citizens of the UK,Britain,France,Netherlands,Belgium,Germany.You can't tell me they just gave them a placad to hold without knowing what it says.
    This is the problem though: They're not few,they're not in one country and they're not good.
    We're not talking about the good ones that we know.We're not talking about your friend,my friend,your neighbor or whoever else is a good and nice citizen.
    We're talking about this lot and the actual "expansion" of such radicals in Europe through both migration legal or illegal and child birth.For the second we can't do anything,for the first we can do.

    Maybe it's my country's problems like you said that make me think like that a bit the threat here in Greece in the same way like in the pictures above hasn't yet taken shape.
    But I've seen in happen in Bosnia and Kosovo and when I see photos like where muslim citizens of European countries threaten the countries that have become their new homes...that's unacceptable!!!!!!
     
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Yes. Meaningless.

    There are a lot of questions surrounding these pictures like:

    - where were they taken?
    - what was the occasion(s)?
    - who is behind the demonstrations?
    - is there a local regime behind the demonstrations?
    - what action provoked them to make this reaction?
    - what are they to gain from these demonstrations?

    and some others like:

    - is there a possibility these photos have been tempered with?
    - is there a connection between these pics besides the intent of the texts?

    Trusting you are of enough intellectual capacity, you will see that different answers to these questions lead to completely different conclusions on the readers and without the context(s) it is simply impossible to discuss them.

    I am sure you have researched their background before posting the pics. So... let's start over, after you explained :)
     
  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Trusting that you are of enough intellectual capacity too I wonder what makes you ask all these questions when it's obvious that the photos should make you feel a bit concerned.

    Maybe where you live there's no problem about that,yet.But hey..every day we hear in documentaries and on the news and we read it on the net that more and more radical muslims even in European countries demand "Sharia law" to be imposed.

    A few days ago Gadafi declared "jihad" on Switzerland :S

    These photos haven't been tampered,why would they anyway,you get to see such demonstrations on TV too whenever something happens that "offends" the muslims who live in European countries.Mohammed sketches,banning the veil in France,incidents in Iraq or somewhere else.

    For example,do you want to have a few hundred Shia muslims celebrating the Ashura in your city?
     

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  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I wouldn´t care, Foin.

    The thing is, pictures ARE about their context. A picture is a snapshot in time, and the photographer choses what we see - and what we don't. There is no saying wat led up to the picture the photographer took. And, mostly, there is no saying what followed.

    I want you to take a look at the following picture of suppresive hate in a Muslim boy;

    [​IMG]

    Although the book will tell you in much detail how exactly the Islamic world reasons, it isn't of much consequence. Remember that we are looking at press photographers. One of the pictures taken will probably have landed in a newspaper near you. But zoom out and see the bigger picture :)

    Nothing is what it seems; don´t trust completely on your eyes.

    I will have to refrain from further discussion before you have unearthed the bigger picture of these snapshots you presented us with.
     
  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I know what you're talking about very well,but I just can't take it anymore with all that muslim violence especially when I've been reading and seeing(in videos on the net)all the violence those radicals have been committing and all the attrocities during recent wars and justifying it in the name of their religion.

    At least,from what I know Marines in Afghanistan and Iraq don't cut heads or dismember POW's or dead enemies as if they're back in the middle-ages.But hey check out some videos from Bosnia,Chechnya,Afghanistan,Iraq and other wars and you'll see what I'm talking about.

    Seeing crowds of such fanatics roam European countries' cities with such signs and slogans is at least annoying if not outraging.
     
  15. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    I believe muslims generally to be a way of diverting people's attention to something irrelevant. How many muslims are there in the world? Three world's superpowers, russia, china, and the US, are all non islamic, practically all of them are anti-islamic.
    What chance could Islam ever have to even knock at Europe's doorstep?
    Once, they almost occupied Vienna. I very much doubt that will happen again.
    And I am very sure that in the case of muslims multiplying enough in some countries AND become a threat, our lovely european standards and tolerance will be put aside for a short time and a genocide over the muslims could be comitted, where we will just prove we haven't gotten much ahead of the medieval muslims.
    As for terrorism, how many people die in the West due to terrorism? I mean a few thousand killed in 9/11 means absolutely nothing. Boo ****ing hoo. Millions die daily because of war, murder, poverty, injustice, rape and violence in much of the world. But we should worry for a few americans, those americans who would've likely been for war and murder in the name of a blurry concept most of them do not understand - liberty? I think not. There are greater problems for our world. These petty events are here just to take your mind off whatever and instill fear and compliance. Make you hate your brethren.
    Why make people listen to your orders with your fist if you can make them your willing slaves.
     
  16. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I agree, Turambar. When I look at those pictures I see desperate suppressed people, who feel like their only hope for freedom or justice is aggressive action. That is from their point of view, I assume. So I try to put my mind into their mindset. Try to think how they feel instead of just looking at those pictures and see how much hate is on those boards they're carrying. People should try to look at it objectively for once, instead of feeling threatened. It makes me feel sad and feel pity for these people, who are carrying these messages, that they don't know what else to do, rather than these protests. It doesn't scare me what these people are saying, cause I know that if this keeps up, only more violence will occur, in response to what they are doing, and more victims will fall.
     
  17. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Gentlemen,I think we all agree that the West has not exactly contributed to keeping pressure off the muslims the last 20 years or so_On the opposite they have enraged them even more.But let's not be fooled and think that Islam is the big "victim" here and these people are so justified to act like this.Did you see any non-muslim living in a traditional muslim country even dare hold anti-muslim placads with slogans like "MECCA WILL FALL!" or "MUSLIMS PREPARE,THE WEST WILL CONQUER YOU!" and such stuff?

    Yes I know what you mean Blackness,economy and globalisation and all the fake economic crisis are the main problem,but we can't ignore that we're in the path of such muslims who are of the mentality "convert or die".I agree that muslims can't march towards Vienna again,however seeing what happened in Kosovo,what Turkey wants to do in Thrace too and more important what's being going on with muslims becoming even more radical in the European countries is not exactly something that we should be ok with.

    Quotes from Gadafi:

    Islam will take over Europe without violent force within a few decades, said Libyan Leader Moammar Gadhafi in a speech aired on the Arab satellite network Al Jazeera.

    "We have 50 million Muslims in Europe," Gadhafi said. "There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe – without swords, without guns, without conquests. The 50 million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."
    If Turkey is added to the European Union, the Libyan leader said, Europe will have another 50 million Muslims.


    "Europe is in a predicament, and so is America," Gadhafi said. "They should agree to become Islamic in the course of time, or else declare war on the Muslims."

    And the problem is,that many muslims living in Europe are of this mentality.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  18. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    I don't feel threatened by Muslims, I'm not afraid they could take over Europe. Seriously, as Blackness said, terrorism isn't a serial killer as is poverty, crime, hunger and car-crashes.
    The country I'd feel threatened by would be China because of their huge economy and their will to expand etc. But that hardly belongs in this thread.

    I can totally agree with that, although I do not like the prospect of putting our nice standards of fake tolerance aside ... it will happen though once a threat arises. As it always does.
    Or, possibility B, we are too rich and too wealthy to actually care about it and someone will simply take over and we wouldn't mind. That would be a well earned defeat then.


    They got 50 million Muslims in Europe- there are 82 million germans, 3.5 million of them are Muslims. I really don't see how they could pose a serious threat
    And Ghadfi can talk a lot if the day is long. Europe has 700 Million inhabitants, if 50 million of that are Muslim, then what? probably 300 Million are christian, or more. There's no threat of a non-violent take.over and there's no threat of a violent take-over and there's no threat of a economic take-over.

    There is a threat however that the media will put such a wrong focus on this issue that people will actually fear the "overwhelming" presence of Muslims in their country which would end up in hatred of Muslims, a Nazi view of the world and a second holocaust.
    Same thing as it was with the Jews 1933, it's Propaganda to get peoples minds of the real problems, give them a scapegoat and something to complain about.
    Be careful with the media...
     
  19. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I was against all this too at first,but now that I see Islam actually growing in the Balkans taking shape and threating even my country too both by immigration and provocation of Turkey to form a Kosovo-like state in Thrace,I'm getting a bit angry about the whole thing.
    You let them in your country,you give them jobs,you give them food,you give them money and they shout they want to conquer your country and impose Shariah law on it?

    By the way,in Bosnia and in Kosovo there was both a violent take-over and a non-violent take over.The non-violent take over in Kosovo happened with the help of the UN,NATO and of course America and the billions of dollars the Saudi Arabians and other gulf war muslim countries offer(both to Kosovo and Bosnia)to build more mosques,more islamic education centers and schools and generally to expand the wahabbist Islam in Europe.

    By the way...China?
     
  20. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Didn't say a a 1:1 ratio of extremists. I said you coul find 100 Christians that would condemn a fanatic Christian. I doubt you could find very many muslims to condemn fanatical muslims, even here in the US.

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/274683/dangerous_percentage_25_of_young_muslim.html