Islam: an excuse or victim?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by azuren82, Mar 17, 2009.

  1. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Well, basically this title is what I want to discuss in terms of terrorism and extremism. I think that pre-911, no one actually thought much on this religion, but after 911, I'm starting to see reports that went along the line of ppl being Islamphobs not to mention that there might be ppl out there who would think of Islam upon hearing the word terrorism Also, there are ppl in this world who critcized the religion that it abhors women's rights on the basis of what they seen in hardliner countries like Iran. So the big question: What are your thoughts on Islam in this aspect?

    For me, I believe that the religion is basically a victim of extremism. I dunno much abt the Quran, but I truly think that any legitimate religion in this world won't have any basis in starting something along the line of jihad. (read: senseless war and killings). But I won't say that the extremist are using their religion as an excuse either. I'd prefer to see them along the light of misinterpreting the Quran. Either that or for terrorists, they are more or less disillusioned with the influence of the Western world and this in itself forced them along the path of religion extremism.

    Okay I've put up a bit on my views here. I'll be looking forward to see what you guys will say. And pls keep the debate civil. I don't want Skyanide going ballistic just because there are some retarded ppl in this world who dunno the term being civilized.
     
  2. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    it is world wide known , that both of Islamic wars inner and outside, - it specially outside is against all world ( all who dont believe in Islam) so i think Islam is guilty for teorism
     
  3. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    It's kind of difficult to understand what you're saying, but here is my initial response. If I misinterpreted your intentions, I apologize.


    Erm, if you don't know what Islam is about, why are you making statements such as "jihad means senseless war and killings"? The word "jihad" means "to struggle," or to "exert one's utmost power, efforts, endeavors, or ability in condending with an object of disapprobation." Not "senseless violence and killings." That struggle is NOT against the outside, as you suggested. It's supposed to be a struggle against sin/evil. The Prophet most likely meant it to be originally against the self.

    Clearly you've never had any kind of encounter with Islam outside of the world of television, as presented by a Western media. Have you ever read the Qur'an? Have you ever talked to a devout Muslim in person? If you had, I doubt that you'd have such a Western point of view on Islam.

    Here is the basic definition of the Qur'an as seen by the Muslims: It is the Word of God passed down to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. They also believe that the Qur'an is the purification of the word of God, since the Christians and Jews had allowed it to be corrupted. Unlike Christians, who accept outside literature to be holding some authority (popes, saints, etc.) the Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the highest authority and is #1. Second are the hadith, which are the sayings/doings of the Prophet Muhammad, in which he would tacitly approve or disapprove of certain things. Third are the sayings of the Companions of Muhammad, which were his compatriots (in Sunni eyes, the first four Caliphs are a perfect example - Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and 'Ali). But even within the Qur'an itself, there seem to be discrepancies that I don't understand (probably because 1) I don't have faith, and instead tend to rely on Socratic logic, and 2) I'm a Westerner just taking a 300-level class on Islamic Thought.)

    I, personally, abhor any kind of violence. I don't at all agree with external jihad at all. However, that being said, there ARE quotes and the like within the Qur'an that seem to contradict each other, that I'm not quite sure what to think of. Note that these quotes are from my lectures, and that you can find more advocating each position if you read the Qur'an.

    Nonmilitant verses:
    16:125 - Call people to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful teaching. Argue with them in the most courteous way, for your Lord knows best who has strayed from his way and who is rightly guided.
    6:106 - Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord, there is no God but Him. Turn away from those who join other Gods with Him.
    29:46 - Argue only in the best way with the People of the Book, except those of them who act unjustly. Say: 'We believe what has been revealed to us and in what was revealed to you; our God and your God are only one; we are devoted to him.


    Restrictive verses:
    2:190 - Fight in God's cause those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits, for God does not love those who overstep the limits.
    22:39-40 - Those who have been attacked are permitted to take up arms because they have been wronged - God has the power to help them - those who have been driven unjustly from their homes only because they say, "Our Lord is God." If God did not repel some people by means of others, then monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where God's name is much invoked, would have been destroyed. God is sure to help those who help His cause - God is strong and mighty.

    Note that this verse includes Judeochristian houses of worship.

    Conflict between God's Command and People's Response:
    2:216 - Fighting is ordained upon you though you dislike it. You may dislike something although it is good for you, or like something although it is bad for you: God knows and you do not.
    Note the word dislike. Also note the emphasis on God deciding and not on humans.
    4:75 - Why should you not fight God's cause, and for those oppressed men, women and children who cry out, "Lord rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors! By your grace, give us a protector and helper."

    Verses Strongly Advocating Wars for God's Religion:
    2:191 - Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the sacred mosque, unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them - that is what such disbelievers deserve.
    Note that there

    Peace verse:
    8:61 - But if they incline towards peace, you must also incline towards it, and put your trust in God: He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

    From the Muslims' point of view, the Western world are pretty much nonbelievers. In terms of politics, the Western world has meddled far too much, particularly in Iran. Is it really any wonder that many of them actually believe that their religion allows them to defend themselves against America? "9/11 was unprovoked!" from Western points of view. Maybe from their points of view, the provocation began with Western meddling.


    I'm going to assume that you're joking here. It's not funny at all if it is.



    The problem with most people is that they fail to separate the religion and the people. The religion may have very good ideas, but the people corrupted it. Christianity is a perfectly good example. The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, indulgences, etc. were all something that the Christians came up with. Or what about "Christians" in some of the rougher countryside who believe that it's acceptable to bomb entire counties? 'cause, like, Christ totally promoted that. You know, it said in the Bible, "Go forth and kill entire countries in the defense of your own nation." Oh wait, he didn't. What he said was "Love your neighbor as thyself." I see precious little of that in a purported Christian nation like America.

    In the end, if you're going to talk about using Islam as an excuse, you might as well lump Christianity in it as well. This has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with baser human desires for power, violence, and war.
     
  4. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    i am not - i have learned at school for 3 year now - that Islamic have to wars one inner and second is out side it is called Dzihad.

    and that they are brain washed by this out side Dzihad(holly war), and that why they make terror acts.
     
  5. Senekha

    Senekha <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    WTB sentence that makes sense?

    First of all, it's generally held that you should refrain from using abbreviations like "ppl" and "pls" in a debate it you want people to take you seriously.

    Secondly, I'm not sure if you are blaming Islam as a religion or simply the extremists for terrorism.
    There are extremists in any religion - to blame the religion itself is hardly fair.

    Personally, I don't see Islam as either an "excuse" or a "victim." I've visited a peaceful Islamic country, and come across some of the nicest, most considerate people I've ever met there. They were peaceful and friendly, and looking at them, it's hard to condemn the religion of these people as the sole cause for "terrorism" as we see it. I'm not denying that terrorists are usually extremist Muslims, but like I said before, extremists are extremists...we shouldn't lump them in with the rest of Muslims.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2009
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Anonymous I just wonder WHY I should sit down and try to translate all the bullocks you're spouting.You know what??I won't do that.Instead I'll simply ignore every single post of yours as if it's an ad or something.
     
  7. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    You're not even in university.
     
  8. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    It hasn't been long since I returned and have posted, and I already know he's from Latvia, and his english isn't very good. He wants to be part of the discussion,but of course limited english makes that hard.

    And why do I have the feeling you three would ask for "cultural understanding" on a topic like this, nut then lash out at the first person that walks by who doesn't speak good english?
     
  9. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

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    Why? Using common abbreviates like 'ppl' instead of people is just the same as using don't instead of do not. If one where to replace evry sngle word w/ abbrevts then i can undrstand, but azuren only used ppl, and possible Islamphobs because I don't know what that is. Hardly something to call somebody out on.

    To the debate. I've known a few people that follow Islam that came through my last job regularly, and they were all very pleasant. I have many doubts that the religion Islam is responsible for the acts of terrorism. It is an excuse, I believe.
     
  10. Senekha

    Senekha <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    He also used "pls" and "abt."
    Also, it is NOT the same as using "don't". Abbreviations /= contractions.
     
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  11. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    I lashed at him for not speaking good English? Where? Oh wait, I DIDN'T. Why do I have the feeling that you didn't even read my posts before lumping me into a category?

    Also, I rarely post on the debate forums or in spam. I have little to no interaction with the majority of the members on this forum. Sorry for not knowing the locations of every poster here.

    Besides, if you make an unclear point in a debate, poor English or not, then you should expect to have your logic cross-examined for it. That's kind of the point of a debate. If he makes a point in poor English that I can understand, I let it slide. If it's unclear or contradicts himself more than once, why shouldn't I point it out? That's the whole point of Socratic philosophy, debate, and logic.

    Incidentally, he didn't actually do that, so I didn't really comment on his poor English. Not that you noticed.

    I am commenting, however, that "studying in high school" really doesn't mean much. You don't go indepth into topics at all. I don't pretend that I have any degree of knowledge on things that I learned in high school, and I took a total of 8 AP courses (college-level) and received university credit for all 8 of them, which does mean that I had some degree of competence in said courses. For that matter, I'm not pretending that I have much knowledge on anything I'm learning in university, but I WILL state that compared to him, it's a more in-depth study.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2009
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  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Justice,because you were not around all these weeks having anonymous posting after every post of yours spamming irrelevant nonsense all the time.You just came back after a million years to talk AGAIN about politics.SOOOOO not cool.
     
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  13. Senekha

    Senekha <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    If his post (or what I understood from it = "i think Islam is guilty for teorism") hadn't come across as extremely biased and, forgive me for using the word, ignorant on such issues, I wouldn't have "lashed out" at him. Perhaps if he had used something to back up his claims, then I would accept it as a legitimate argument in this debate thread.
     
  14. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Contractions, which are don't, can't, etc. are known and accepted in the English language. Abbreviations such as "RSVP," etc. are also in the English language. Abbreviations such as "ppl" and "pls" are internet/text messaging abbreviations, and are not part of proper English.

    You can get away with using contractions and abbreviations in business emails, or even some university papers depending on the style and how strict your professor is (for example, I was allowed to use contractions in a personal English essay because of the style). If I'd included internet acronyms, I would've gotten kicked out of the class.
     
  15. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    On what is said, I believe there are extremists on both sides. Christians, Muslims... They both effect the war, only Islam does it more because they are more effected by the war. They're more in the middle of it and have to suffer more of what life is taken away. I don't blame that on religion on either sides. You'll always have these type of people who will urge for war and want revenge cause they blame the effects of war on the opposite religion. But as I said you have that on both sides.

    And about anonymous, yes his English isn't fantastic, but cut him some slack. He's still young, he's still learning. Just have some patience with him, Just take it easy.
     
  16. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    I don't think you get the point. People aren't criticizing him because his English is bad. He's getting criticized because his posts are incomprehensible or simply don't hold up to cross-examination, which is because of poor English. Not quite the same thing.
     
  17. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    On topic I was in love with the Arabic language and culture a few years ago.I was watching and recording documentaries about Palestine,Iraq etc.all the time and I was generally reading lots of books about the Arabs generally.I even have a Quran,although I don't really know what to do with it,I'm thinking about giving it to a muslim friend of mine as a gift.

    But anyway,thing is....we all see that both Arabs and foreigners,christians or muslims,shiites or sunnis,suffer in Iraq because of terrorism.

    A few months ago I had posted a link to a video about Evgeniy Rodionov,who was executed by muslims terrorists in Chechenya.

    Yes there are fanatics and evil people in all countries and in all religions.However Islam does tend to have the most extreme views and the most radical followers.Why?It's the nature of the Quran and the Hadith that encourages extremists to misinterprete parts of it and use them on their own.

    In Christianity there is no encouragement about violence.On the contrary what is stressed most of all is love and forgiveness.

    However the concept of Jihad in Islam seems to be a "flexible" meaning,allowing a lot of extremists to consider Jihad as a cause for life.They think they are doing something divine when they attack infidels.

    And Islam did start like that.Islam did spread like this when it first appeared.With the sword.The Persians were forced to become muslims and for centuries that battle was raging on between Christians and Muslims.

    There's also a difference in culture.

    For example we see that most of the terrorists come from Saudi Arabia.Why is that?Perhaps because in Saudi Arabia a stricter version of Islam exists,wahabism.Combine that with bored rich youngsters who are looking for adventure and that's the problem they become terrorists by thinking they have some kind of an important and holy mission.

    The word martyr is also very different in Christianity and Islam.In Christianity a martyr is someone who dies because he believes in Christ and because he does not denounce his faith.In Islam a martyr is considered as well not just the victim,but someone who causes great sadness and pain to someone considered "enemy" or "infidel".

    Short break for dinner :p
     
  18. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    There's no encouragement for violence in Christianity, but plenty of Christians were and are violent anyway.

    What I'm getting at here is that regardless of beliefs, religions are made of people. And people are all the same in that they have the same base desires for power and violence.
     
  19. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    -bad internet is bad, sorry-
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2009
  20. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    No I understand well what you're trying to say and I agree. I just don't agree you should criticize him so hard for it. Should he be excluded from debates because of his poor English? If it works on your nerves than ignore his posts.