Is this going to work?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by azuren82, Feb 15, 2010.

  1. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Quite obviously, when we talk about scandals involving the Vatican, nothing comes bigger that the sexual child abuse by all those pedo priests out there. And from what I understand, certain things happened and the whole crap got swept under the carpet. Or in the form of this report, Ireland specifically.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100215/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_ireland_sex_abuse

    Okay, so I understand that the Pope is trying to curb this problem via a certain summit. Problem here though is that if the accusations had some truth in it, then quite obviously 1.) those responsible are being protected. 2.) the culprits protecting them refuse to step down from their posts.

    So the big questions: Do you think this summit is going to work or do you think it's only some half hearted attempt at addressing this issue? Should the Vatican be held responsible for the scandal?

    Take note that this is NOT an attempt to bash the RCC or it's dogma. The focus is on the offenders involved. So yeah, pleaes keep the debate civil because last thing I want to see here is a decent attempt to debate ending up to be locked just because some random idiots decided to play punk on random. I really has to post this because I don't have any real knowledge on what is happening behind the scenes where the abuses are concerned, hence the desire to understand the whole thing better via the views of the good people here.

    So yeah, just fire away. But as I've said, pleaes keep this discussion civil. :)
     
  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well - I heared about this summit. Sadly, it is extremely unclear what the outlook of the summit indeed is.

    The major problem of the RCC is that normal rules do not apply. The interest of the Vatican is very different from what we are used to within Democratic - or indeed even capitalist (open market). In politics, there would be no doubt that heads would roll in an uncovered cover-up. Even if some high-ranking officials within a commercial company would be involved in such the same would pretty much ensue. But the Vatican is monolithic, monopolistic institution which isn't bothered about the image of individuals - or, it seems, even an element of its outward image.

    The intervention of the Pope, however, is note worthy. Again, we have no idea what Ratzingers intentions are - but the intervention must mean that he, or at least the Vatican, doesn't like where things are going in Ireland. This could be about the lax matters in which the problems at hand are dealt with. But it could also be about the direction the Irish Church is going, as a result of the recent scandals. It will, however, not be fully supportive of the situation, or so I feel. Support can be issued by fax. This is more serious.

    Honestly, I believe that a good measure of Glasnost is the best remedy in this case. Let an outside committee find out who are the culprits and who have been aiding in covering up. The Pope's visit doesn't lead me to believe matters will be left to that by the Vatican. This is how the Vatican has been dealing with problems for the last 17 centuries or so.

    In the end, I would say that the I cannot judge about a secret convention, since I don't know what exactly happens there. The only thing I can say is that secrecy in this case is not what is called for...
     
  3. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    I have to agree with Tur on this, secrecy is not the way to go about it. Nor IMO should the Vatican be dealing with this at all. One of the main reasons this was swept under the carpet for so long is that the Vatican official stance on sex abuse was that it should be dealt with through the church, not through the courts (I think this might still be the official position though I'm not positive). This mainly resulted in priests being reshuffled and occasionally forcibly retired but rarely prosecuted. Or, basically, the Vatican's official position entirely ignored the fact that sexual abuse was against the law and that therefore offenders should be prosecuted by the civil court. I don't care if the Catholic church sees abuse as a sin and tries to deal with it that way; abuse is a crime and, regardless of whether the offender is a priest or not, they should be put on trial like everyone else.

    The Catholic church also shouldn't be dealing with this because they're, to put it mildly, an interested party in the case. They've previously favoured protecting themselves instead of helping the victims and I don't seeing that changing with this summit. There are Irish priests who are trying to tackle this (Archbishop Diarmuid Martin is probably the best example) by liaising with the victims and establishing child protection standards for the church but IMO the cultural of protecting the church is still there. And for all that that article mentions a Vatican official castigating the Irish bishops, children were abused in other countries too. I've heard mention of Germany in particular in recent days. Any chance the Vatican will accept any responsibility for creating a cultural of secrecy and self-protection at all costs? I don't see it happening personally.
     
  4. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I'm another who agrees that the church cannot clean their own house on this matter. It's quite clear that this is something that is not only fundamentally wrong with the structure of the church system, but also the scale must lead one to question if it is not some inherant problem with the running, organisation, enlisting and appointing of church officials.
    There is clearly something wrong when so many are caught performing acts that are not only illegal but go against the writings in the Bible (I assume this last point).

    The church has lost a lot of face in the light of these accusations and I feel that the only way they can regain this lost image and restor public support* is to have an open investigation. However I greatly doubt that any such action will ever be taken whilst the church maintains the power that it currently does.



    * interestingly dispite the horrific scale and crime being commited there has been no equally large backlash against the church. If teachers; hospital workers or indeed any select area of the public been caught in a similar scandel I would have expected a far bigger backlash. One must then question how much hold the church has over the media - since such national level actions are often the result of media coverage.
     
  5. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    I think it's actually the whole system of governing the church officials that is pretty much faulty. I'm not too sure where the Pope would play in this scandal in the process though if he did truly has prior knowledge to the whole thing. Sorry if this statement sounds blunt here. It's getting very late and my brain just can't create a decent statement. >.>

    And yeah, you're right in saying pedo acts are against the teachings of the Bible. I remember there are mentions of it throughout the the text albeit I can't remember exactly where. Been some time since I've gone on any form of Bible reading. :S
     
  6. Window Bar

    Window Bar "We Read for Light"

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    Sociologically, religion is just as much a follower as a leader -- perhaps moreso.

    Pedophilia has permeated society. In some societies, it's even accepted. The very fact that it's now on the table at the Vatican means that change is real. The toleration of the activity is fading.

    Predators in positions of power, however, will never be entirely erased from the the human roll-call, neither in the RCC nor anywhere else.
     
  7. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Actually from what I've heard from a churchmate, pedophilia has been present as early as Middle Ages or even possibly earlier if the supposed depravity of Sodom, Gomorrah and Canaan has a certain say in it. Only difference is that compared to these ages, this form of act has been condemned even further by the populace in general. Doesn't mean there won't be people who take pleasure in it though. Hey, it's human beings we're talking about. :S
     
  8. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Hmm, I am not entirely sure how long the Pope planned on staying in Ireland. So I don't know whether this is over or not.

    There is, of course, still a possibility that the Holy See demands that those (Bishops) involved should turn themselves in and surrender to the more earthly power of the Irish Police and grant them full co-operation in the following investigation. I am, however, rather sceptical about such an outcome...
     
  9. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Judging from what has been said in this discussion, I'm sad to agree with you here Tur. :(
     
  10. Ser Land

    Ser Land New Member

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    Of course they don't assume their fault. If it was a good thing, they'd jump right up claiming their part on it, but in this case...

    But what can we expect from the pillars of a religion that states that God created the world, but that the "evil" things were created by the Devil. Well, the world is everything, therefore either God created both "good" and "evil" things, OR he didn't create the world. It's logic. The killer of superstition. Or one, at least. But more, there isn't light without darkness, or otherwise, for one defines the other.

    They act like they are all holy. They're not. And I don't think people expect them to be. They wouldn't be in this mess had they reported the misdeeds. They covered it up and now they pay.

    They dug their own grave.
     
  11. PrinceLaharl

    PrinceLaharl New Member

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    I agree with all of what have been said.
    Id like to add thats a real shame that the Church doesnt make any effort to adapt to the changes in the society. For example, they condemn the use of condoms and criticize the governments for poverty and insecurity.
    I think that for people, specially those who live in slums or in poverty, would be a great relief to have something in what believe, something to clutch in hours of need and in general i dont see a real interest for them. I know that its not their fault , that its the government responsability but i know for sure that , at least the Christian religion, should do something more for them.
    And there are priests that help but not the church as institution.

    And about the condom what can i say. Its unbeliavle that someone can be so blind. I mean, come on, you could argue about it with people with the stomach full but the AIDS is mostly expanded in Africa, where the is a strong lack of education in every level. I dont know if GOD (or whatever name you want to call him) would approve a person to die because the church doesnt approve sex before marriage but i prefer to think that not.