Is no always a no?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Emelie, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    Saying "no" out of malicious intent or to frustrate someone make yourself feel powerful sure isn't a nice thing to do and I don't deny that there are people out there who do that. I still stand by my argument that whatever the reason behind the "no", the refusal should absolutely be respected.
    Now that isn't to say that people should be absolved of consequences for a decision to say "no", especially when they did so out of malicious intent. I would argue that the following consequences are quite acceptable:
    - the rejected partner might be angry
    - the rejected partner might choose to end the relationship
    - the rejected partner might tell others, jeopardising the possibility of future relationships for the person who acted maliciously
    If however, anyone asserts that "no" should not be respected because of malicious intent, I don't agree with that.
     
  2. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    Oh let's go there! Debating calmly and rationally to present our views is soooooo much fun :)

    I would accept responsibility for being in the same place at the same time as this stranger. Your post implies that because of that I should also accept that his actions in this place and at that time are also my responsibility and frankly that just doesn't make any sense to me. I can't be responsible for anyone else's actions. I can only be responsible for my own. I know for a fact that I would never ask him to commit the crime you describe.

    I have to say that I don't agree. His actions are his responsibility, not mine. To say that reminding him that he is responsible for his actions might not improve my chances of survival would be a valid argument I suppose but that doesn't change the fact that he is still responsible.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but to distill that down it seems to me that you are saying that you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions because you chose to act in the first place. That's wonderful and I'm glad to hear it. :) This response implies that you feel that everyone else should accept the consequences for their actions as well. I don't have a problem with that. Your response still leaves me wondering about the answer to my question however. There seems to be some ambiguity over that question so I'll restate it more clearly in a way that invites a simple "yes" or "no" answer.
    If a woman revokes her consent, regardless of the reason she has decided to do that, do you feel that it is acceptable for a man to continue to have sex with her?

    Your posts imply to me that because her actions have led her to be there in that situation and at that time, that you feel she deserves to be raped. If that's truly what you meant, I absolutely cannot agree with you. As I pointed out in response to Lady GW's post above: I can accept that she can rightly expect a man to be angry with her over her refusal, and that he might end their relationship over it or that he might tell others about the incident and jeopardise her chances at future relationships by doing so. I CANNOT accept that he has every right to rape her over it. That isn't a consequence: it's a crime.


    *laughs* Agreed :)
    I mostly stay out of those debates... emotions run MUCH too hot in them for my tastes :p
     
  3. LadyoftheGoldenWood

    LadyoftheGoldenWood Well-Known Member

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    I am not saying that a no should not be resected; but that is the reason why many men say that no simply means 'not yet'.

    All of the women who flirt and lead men on telling them no for hours while fully intending to sleep with them and do sleep with them. Men lean a pattern of behavior. Then we get the one girl who says no and could be like me, a natural flirt who just does it without thinking about it, she means her no; but the man has already learned what a flitting girl saying no means from past women.

    I am not saying that women deserves anything done against her. I am saying that as a woman I am ashamed of the women who taught that man that behavior and I feel sorry for him having learned that very bad lesson.
     
  4. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    His actions are solely his responsibility, and you're only responsible for your actions... which in this case unfortunately led you to a dangerous encounter with a bad person. Expanding on this scenario; perhaps better locks on your doors and windows would have stopped the intruder, or having a large intimidating dog, or being trained to fight, or being more aware of your surroundings. It doesn't for a minute absolve the rapist of one ounce of responsibility, only that you have made a series of decisions that only you are responsible for, and that have landed you in trouble.



    No, absolutely not.
    But she is responsible for being with that man, at that time and at that place. Even if it were a total stranger who kidnapped her from the parking lot at the mall, she has no choice but to accept responsibility for being where she was at that time. It's no fault of hers, she hadn't done anything wrong nor does she in the least deserve whatever happens... but she must be responsible for placing herself where she was at that moment in time. For argument's sake, let's say this same women leaves the mall and drives home like normal, but on the way she gets a call and while fiddling around with her cell phone her car drifts over to oncoming traffic causing a horrific accident, and killing her instantly... we both agree she is responsible for her own death. But what of the family in the minivan she hit head on?.. they too are responsible.


    Again, as I told Kak, I said no such thing.
    I'm not blaming the women for making what might have been stupid decisions, and no matter how stupid the decisions that were made nobody deserves to be raped. However, ultimately the responsibility remains the same.

    Let's move away from the whole rape thing and just use a less emotional example... for instance, you are walking along just doing some window shopping downtown when something catches your eye, it's a hip eatery a friend of yours mentioned a week ago. You begin perusing the menu, checking the prices, and a piano falls on you. It seems four stories high above, someone was moving into their new apartment and their piano was being hoisted by crane through a large bay window, when a strap broke. Needless to say you won't be enjoying lunch this afternoon. Though when you were a child you took piano lessons and were awful, and you once spilled a can of Dr.Pepper on your grandmother's Steinway Baby Grand, you have really done nothing to deserve a piano falling on your head.

    The responsibility for the piano mishap lies with the crane operator, but for your part, you were responsible for standing underneath a falling piano. :)




    Philosophy is fun, when else can you talk about rape and falling pianos in the same thread? :)
     
  5. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    To me no means no, for either half of the party, for any type of relationship. However, no in the middle of sex, depending on how far through can be tricky. It can be hard to stop the physical reactions of the body in such a time, especially if one or both people involved are nearing some sort of climax. If someone suddenly said no in this type of time and the other kept going I'm not sure if that would be rape or not. I guess it would be. But can you blame someone for not being able to control the physical and chemical reactions of their body in a situation like that? But saying no any time before, at the beginning etc should definitely be taken seriously.
     
  6. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    Now I think we're operating with two different interpretations of the term "accepting responsibility". The interpretation I'm using could be defined as accepting that the consequences for a person's actions are right and just and that a person feels they are appropriate for the magnitude of their mistake.
    From your latest post Sparrow, I'm guessing you're using the term only to mean that you accept the fact that cause=effect, am I right? If I am, I have to point out that I'm not sure what that fact has to do with a moral debate about whether someone's actions are appropriate or not. The participants have a choice in what the effect is going to be after all.

    lmao XD

    Yes because it absolutely can be done.
     
  7. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Coercing someone, pressuring, bullying etc into an unwanted sexual encounter is dead wrong. It is predatory behaviour and if it is done with the express purpose of procuring sex that would otherwise not be mutually agreeable, that is despicable and constitutes rape.

    Yes. The instant one party says "stop" the other party must comply. Although once in aroused animal mode, the brain stops working for many people, but that is not an excuse in the year 2012. We're *supposed* to be more socially evolved than that.

    Yes. Violence is not necessary for it to constitute rape.


    I keep thinking, to people who defend these "grey area rapists" what they would tell their daughters and sons to do if they ever found themselves in this situation? If their child could hit a pause button on life, and come and ask you for your advice, would you tell your son to just f*** her, she was asking for it? Would you tell your daughter to just shut up and take it because she's not allowed to change her mind?

    I doubt very many people would openly admit to giving that sort of advice if they were asked. And if they did, they are a part of the problem.
     
  8. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Amen to that. Goddam it's hard though, my daughter is 4 and she sure as hell didn't get the pink princess thing from me or my wife, but it's there in spades.
    Luckily, I've also got her hooked on 1960s Spiderman cartoons so she's now into web shooters and catching the Green Goblin.
    Even if she does use pink webs to do so......


    Absolutely god damn hell yeah you can expect someone to stop if you say so!!! And I'm speaking as a sexually active adult male.

    In this particular example though, it would only constitute rape once the person being told "stop" does not stop. Up until then I'm assuming you are talking about a mutually agreeable, consensual engagement. But as soon as someone says "stop" then that's it - game over!
     
  9. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    You can apply a sort of moral sliding scale to cause and effect if you'd like, but to me it's almost beside the point.

    And yes, I'm saying that cause=effect in every way we can imagine, and that whatever happens in your life you are party to it by virtue of the choices you've made. I'm also saying that no matter how unfair and horrible an event in your life has been, you're still on the hook for it.
     
  10. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    LOL, yeah... unfortunately I too found there's no getting past biology, girls will be girls.
    On South Park they had an episode poking fun at little girls and their penchant for making lists, and using glitter... when my daughter was growing up Elmer's Glue Company made a technological breakthrough by coming out with a glue stick with the glitter already in it... book reports, science projects, letters to grandma, for years it seemed nothing couldn't be made a wee bit better but for the use of some sparkly glitter! Once she even applied glitter to a letter she wrote a relative who had a recent death in the family, and saying how sorry she was for her loss... "no honey, we don't put glitter on those type of letters"... "why not dad"... "we just don't, you're going to have to write the letter again, and this time please, no glitter".
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  11. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    There's nothing wrong with using pink webs to catch criminals or liking your glue to be sparkly! ;)
    It amuses me to hear dads lament the fact that they don't understand their daughter's wish to be "girlie". They're girls, not boys! There's nothing wrong with being a girl. ;)
     
  12. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    Yeah I thought so. Agree to disagree :)
     
  13. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    It's all a matter of empowerment and mindset.
     
  14. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Oh we understand it just fine... it's more that we don't think it's particularly advantageous for competing with boys later on in life.
     
  15. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    That's a topic for another thread, I don't want to hijack this one
     
  16. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    Well not many would give that advice, but very few do tell their boys not to rape. Girls are always told to not do this, not do that, or they might get raped. "Don't get raped! Don't wear short skirts, don't drink alcohol, don't go home with boys!" Would be sort of interesting to see some of that the other way around, telling boys not to rape instead. "Don't get drunk, don't go home with girls or you might rape them..." A bit exaggerated but you get my point.


    That has nothing to do with biology, its called social genders for a reason.


    I think I already started a thread on the whole social gender subject.. Always a place to keep discussing it.

    I think the whole social gender thing is disturbing, the people I've met, especially the latest year, have outright called me a BOY. "oh you are so cool, you're like a man". And I'm not sure whether to feel offended or not. I'm not a boy, I'm Emelie, and I like things I like, not things 'girls' are supposed to like cause society tells us so. Although it probably has some influence on me without me knowing it.




    And to whoever it was that said that its harder to stop sex in the middle of the sexact. I think it was Crout (too lazy to check back in the thread :p) I can totally understand what you mean, but its still very much possible, I've had to stop for guys and have had guys to stop for me. And its been totally fine and no one just kept on going. Now maybe it has to do with what sort of relationship you have with the other person though, if you like them, you just don't keep on going if they want to stop... However, if its a ONS and someone you don't know, maybe it's harder? I still don't believe it is, always possible to stop.
     
  17. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    Fair enough... new thread started ;)
     
  18. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    If the person you are with respects you (not necessarily love, even a one night stand can still involve respect) then that person will stop if asked. No excuses. Even in the midst of wild passionate lust, if someone says stop, that's it. You can always resume play if all parties agree. If not, you may need to take matters into your own hands if you know what I mean.

    Edit - a friend just linked this article which caught my eye, containing this little gem of truth that relates to my reference to respect:

     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  19. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Depending on how far out from the norm you are you're always going to get ridiculed by somebody for it. You're young and still finding your way in the world, take heart, at some point the herd animals who mistake themselves for individuals won't matter to you at all.
     
  20. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    Well of course, there will always be people like that. And especially if someone's breaking the norm somehow. I just don't see why people have to put "genderstamps" on everything. Just makes people have less choice in their life. Or at least them who cant or wont dare to challenge the norm.

    I believe the gender roles restrict us too much. Now im not saying i'd like all roles to be switched or mixed up completely, im just saying i want everyone to be able to do whatever they like, and not be questioned or ridiculed for it.