Is no always a no?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Emelie, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    What really counts as rape?


    I read in the paper yesterday about this girl, who had been raped. She had said no and refused to spread it so to speak. In the end she just gave up and laid there. The man is now going free cause of our stupid laws here in Sweden, and stupid people at court.
    A judge at court afterwards said this and I quote: "We have a problem here, we keep telling young women that a no is enough". I'm not really sure what more you need in a rape situation but what do you guys think? Is no really all that is need for it to be a rape, or should violence and more force be in it for it to be one? The line is fine, but where does it go? And if two people go as far as getting their clothes off together and jump into bed together and one of them says no right before the act, and one still proceeds, is it still rape?

    I for one didn't realize you had to bash the guys scull in with an iron pipe before its called rape. My opinion, one could even say no in the middle of the act, and if the other still proceeds, it's rape.

    But I'd like to hear you alls opinions on this.
     
  2. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Mutual consent is ALWAYS necessary. If one person revokes their consent in any way, that should be the end of it. Anything else counts as rape. That's my view.
     
  3. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    Exactly my opinion.
     
  4. Padmé

    Padmé Mrs Cascador

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    Absolutely right
     
  5. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Sex is a very emotionally and chemically charged situation even at the best of times so there is a lot of argument that not everyone is always in "their right frame of mind". Furthermore whilst a simple "no" should be sufficient I think it has to be something that the party in rejection has to maintain as their stance.

    There are many times when we say "no" when we mean "urgh maybe not now" and where the mind can be convinced. In my mind if you then simply lay back and take it it means that the other party can assume that acceptance has been given* or that at the very least it makes the stance of the initially denying party appear confused or uncertain. So I think that its not just enough to say No you've got to be firm and stick to the stance itself and not outwardly change your mind later.


    Having said that I fully respect the fact that it becomes a very complicated situation since many people, when forced into such a situation who do initially refuse, can end up being ground down into a position where they feel that the only course of action they have left is to accept to get it over with so that the assault ends as soon as possible - as opposed to fighting a constantly losing battle.

    Where you draw the line between someone who has intentionally and actually raped and when a person had two changes of mind (one during from denial to acceptance and then after the reverse) is most likely a nightmare of a situation to work out for a court.

    Rape can also havea heavy bias in general depending on the society. It will tend to, in a court, either favour the woman more or the man more as a cultural reflection more over than anything else many times (at least for boarderline cases although in some countries even extreme cases it can be very hard to impossible for one side to prove the case of rape**)



    *this is of course excusing any bondage stuff where the one party is unable to respond of course.
    ** this is often in a male dominated society
     
  6. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    i just think it's funny that you mentioned bondage.
     
  7. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    Couldn't have said better myself
     
  8. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I think I wound up somehow debating the courts position more than that of couples or some mishmash half way (which I think is why my argument keeps going back to "its complicated").


    Also whilst true that many cultures are male dominant don't forget that the reverse and a bias toward favouring the female can be present socially. Heck accusations of rape (accusations before trial) can often fall to the situation of automatic identification of the male (in male - female relationships) as the blame party very fast. This is before trial with just the accusation.
     
  9. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    No is no in my opinion too, regardless of when it is said. BOTH people absolutely have to respect that.
    Having said that, I wonder how people get themselves into these wishy-washy situations sometimes. If a person is suffering that much doubt about whether they want to participate, why would they ever let it go that far in the first place? I think it all comes down to maturity: knowing what you want and being assertive enough to be honest with someone else. If a person can't do that, they have no business putting themselves in that position to begin with. By the same argument people have to be mature and responsible enough to accept a "no" verdict if they're going to play the game. Someone who can't has no business playing it either in my opinion.
     
  10. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately that's not always how sex works.
    If the act is well underway and the girl finds she has a change of heart, well, that's sort of like jumping off a cliff than having second thoughts... once you've committed yourself you simply must follow through. I think the problem is that some women think sex is all that big a deal.

    You guys make it out to be almost like signing a contract with someone... "my lady love, dost thou wish to have intercourse now?"... I have never in my life propositioned for sex, it just happens or it doesn't. Where's the magic, the beautiful voodoo between two people who sort of like each other?
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2012
  11. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    I think the problems come when ANYBODY thinks it isn't that big of a deal. I think the media and society treat it far too lightly, portraying it as something casual and harmless. It can have HUGE consequences that can totally wreck your life: like unwanted pregnancy and contracting an STD. Even using "protection" only reduces the risk of these things, not eliminates it. There's also the issue that in most cases two people are alone together in a private place where they're unlikely to be disturbed. That gives the stronger of the two the opportunity to overpower the other. For anyone to put themself in that position requires a big investment of trust in the person they're with and that is a big deal too because it involves a potential risk to personal safety. From the pics you've posted Sparrow, I suspect that you aren't likely to be the smaller of the two in such a situation. That being the case, I wonder if you never considered that perspective and perhaps that's why you made the comment that you did.
    I'm not saying that it isn't a stupid idea to "jump off the cliff" as you put it and then change your mind, but "no" is a parachute and nobody has the right to sabotage it.
     
  12. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    That was a really great metaphor.
     
  13. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    But life is full of risks.
    My daughter was a result of an unplanned, and unwanted pregnancy... but I can hardly imagine life without her. Now, it's the best thing that ever happened to me. And what of being physically bigger than someone?.. a woman can overpower a man with emotion. I think perhaps mentally some of you women think of sex as some sort of submission to a man, that's not my problem nor is it the fault of the "media". If you live in a modern western country you are by law equal to a man, in every way. It's not my doing that so many of you become cheerleaders in school, or Girl Scouts, or wear pushup bras, or own a dozen pair of shoes, dream of marrying your prince charming... these are the things that girls/women do to themselves that say to me that you don't except equality and parity with boys/men.

    Having jumped from planes with just a parachute between me an eternity; I can say it's probably a better idea to not jump if you're not prepared for the consequences. Life has no regard for metaphors.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2012
  14. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    So you're saying that women should be forced to get pregnant when they don't want to..? Just because a man doesn't want to be responsible or receive consent the women should just take what comes? That's one of the most misogynistic things I've ever heard. I don't understand you.
     
  15. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    True, but consent implies that you WANT to take those risks.

    Of course she is :)
    I would point out that not every unplanned pregnancy works out for the best in all cases though. Many women (and men too) carry guilt and emotional scars from dealing with the consequences of unwanted pregnancy and I challenge you to point out how STD's would improve anyone's life. Some of them can kill you and others you have to live with for life.

    I think you answered this already in your previous post:

    "simply must follow through" implies a removal of choice. If you consider women as equal to men in every way as you claim, then why "must" a woman follow through? The thing that worries me about "simply must follow through" is the implied threat of consequences for refusal. Suddenly a disparity in size/strength and the definition of the word "consent" seems particularly relevant....

    And a man can do that to a woman as well. No problems with equality there I think. My arguments also apply to both sexes. If a man says "no", it's just as wrong for a woman to badger him emotionally or physically into anything he doesn't want to do.

    I'm not sure what any of these things have to do with equality as the term relates to consent. Respecting a "yes" or "no" decision from a woman seems pretty independent of her clothing choices, extracurricular activities, number of shoes owned or her private thoughts and fantasies. It doesn't strike me as a valid argument to say that you can take away her right to choose because she feels that she is unequal to a man. For that matter, it doesn't seem logical to me to say that she feels unequal because of any of the things you mentioned anyway.


    As I said before, I don't think it's a bright idea to change your mind AFTER jumping off a cliff either. Yet, people make mistakes and that's a fact of life. The issue up for debate is whether there should be consequences for this particular mistake or not. I say "not".
     
  16. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    I said nothing of the sort.

    I'm saying that I want women to be completely equal in every way imaginable.
    In my life, I've probably had as many women make the initial move as times that I've asked them out first. I love modern women, which means they behave very much like a man does. I don't open doors for women, I don't come to their rescue unless it's absolutely necessary, my daughter was never allowed to do the cheerleading thing, or join the Girl Scouts, or dress like a whore. It never stopped her from doing "girlie" stuff, which she's always done, but I drew the line at what I thought was important... those things that demean girls, that make them less than boys.
     
  17. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Believe me, I'm not saying that no doesn't mean no.
    But if a woman is in a situation that turns ugly she should take some responsibility for putting herself in that position in the first place. I've lost count of all the times trouble has found me, but ultimately, I have to take responsibility for all that happens to me. I think when one becomes an adult you choose to be doing whatever it is you're doing and unless you believe in destiny, or keep faith in a God, there's only one person you can hold responsible for your life, and that's yourself.
     
  18. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    I couldn't agree more. I believe we should all take responsibility for our decisions and mistakes. I think the disagreement between you and I in this debate lies in the definition of "responsibility" for this particular mistake however. If a woman makes a mistake by letting things go too far and then changes her mind and says "no", what "responsibility" do you think she should take?

    Again, I couldn't agree more and that comes back to my whole point about maturity and perspective. If a person can't handle the possible consequences, then it's a bad idea to take the risks. I find it interesting that you think having faith in God absolves you of being responsible for your decisions in life, but that's a whole other debate. ;)
     
  19. LadyoftheGoldenWood

    LadyoftheGoldenWood Well-Known Member

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    The only reason no does not always mean no is because there are certain women out there who say no because either A, they want to be proper and say that they said no and the guy just got the better of them so they gave in or B, because they like to say no and then tease the guys paints off and make him crazy until their no that mean's 'not yet' becomes a yes.

    The A reason stared back in the 50's ish, when girls wanted to, but if they did they would be the town slut who gave it up before marriage and that was just indecent. And then they could say "I said no but he tricked me into it" or "coursed me into it"

    The second came up when women desired to turn into little c**k teasing things that want to say no, tease the guy till he is ready to rip their close of and then either shut him down or finally say yes; cause it makes them feel powerful and in crontrol; like they are so hot.

    Those are the two reasons why no does not always mean no. And as a woman I am ashamed of both reasons and knowing that women have done them and still do do both of them. And I feel sorry for every guy out there who does not know what 'no' means because of them.
     
  20. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Full responsibility.
    I think this becomes a bigger question of philosophy... oh no!.. let's not go there. ;)

    Let me see if I can illustrate what I mean... where are you and what are you doing at the very moment you read this sentence?.. the answer could be dead simple, or it could be very complicated as you explain all the history, chance meetings, queer twists of fate, that have led you to this moment in time. But here you are just the same. If you believe in freewill and that there are no supernatural forces in the universe, leastwise ones that impress on human matters, than you have chosen to be at your computer reading this paragraph and probably scratching your head wondering what I'm getting at... imagine now that a stranger creeps up behind you, grabs you, and goodness forbid... rapes you. Whose responsible?

    It's rather pointless to assign responsibility to a stranger now that you're in great peril of losing your life, isn't it?

    Assuming you survive the encounter, what part did you play in this 'chance encounter', what choices did you make either consciously or subconsciously that allowed this reality to occur? Isn't it your reality, as much as it is the stranger's reality; each of you totally responsible for being at this moment in time?

    For myself, once I accept total responsibility for everything that happens or doesn't happen, good fortune and bad, every twist and turn, than I become my own God, so to speak. I throw a stone into a pond and it causes ripples... you throw a stone and it too causes ripples. We all throw stones into the pond and the ripples overlap so we can no longer distinguish what ripples belong to what stone thrower, only that there's cause and effect at work. Known in philosophical terms as "causality". In my opinion, I have no choice but to be responsible for both my stone's ripples, and all the ripples it comes in contact with. I have chosen to throw a stone into the pond, come what may.

    Yes, we probably should not go there. :)