Iran nuclear issues...

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by azuren82, Mar 16, 2007.

  1. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Boy, I'd be depressed if i thought the way you do. I could easily debate you point by point on everything, but I'll stick with what the topic is.

    Iran is not a threat to the US directly. Despite the fact they are taking direct intervention in Iraq by supplying insurgent groups, Iran doesn't pose a threat to the US.

    But if for a moment you don't think Iran can't (or won't) release either materials or know how to help terrorists create a dirty bomb, I think you're deluded. I also think you're deluded if the US is just going to willy nilly launch an assault because Emperor Bush is bored. Iran can be very patient. It can afford to be. But when you have a nation that is aggressively supporting terrorist organizations around the Middle East (Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad) in order to attack other nations like Israel, Jordan, Lebanon (the massive number of Anti-Syrian politicians that have been assassinated is quite alarming) then you have a problem that needs to be dealt with.

    This isn't the Twilight Zone. This is what life has been like ever since man came on the scene, and this is what it will be like until we are all gone.
     
  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Ah, yes. Well, there's the agenda to what should happen, and then there's reality of what happens. I don't know what happened for Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan was probably a move against terrorism; Iraq at least had the suspicion of dubious intelligence information to start a war on.

    Iran is turning into a different story. I mean, if the Bush administration has an agenda of making a move against Iran, then a report that deeply discredited Iran and showed they were making big advancements on that bomb of theirs, then they had a good reason to invade Iran. The new estimate shows that this isn't the case. Still, the administration seems to push the anti-Iran agenda. Which, in turn, make me suspicious of the other two war agendas as well. That's what I was trying to say.

    Still, there are the sanctions. Those are mainly political. It's a way of saying "you're not in our league". If the US (and the EU) manage to push stricter sanctions throught the UN, then that is a way of saying that Iran is not in league with the rest of the world. Which makes it much more easy to justify war. Starting War talk is most definately the wrong way around these days. But wasn't it Rice who said something about "severe concequences"? That's a war hint in my book...

    Iran, in the mean time, has it's own agenda of being disobedient. It's what they do for a living; showing the Arab world that they shall not and will not yield to the Western world. Aparently, that buys quite some credit in that region. But more importantly, painting the picture of a common enemy creates some base of power. This is a common tactic, not unknown to the US either. And Iran has an easy time. Just throw out the bait and wait untill the Western world bites. Gays a myth in Iran? Whiping pet-state Israel off the map? Holocaust a myth? Nuclear weapons? Think about it. And the Western world is doing their very best to support Iran in this action.

    Insulting: yes. Reason to start a war? That'd be really weak.
     
  3. volksmenner

    volksmenner practitioner of æsthetics

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    justice.

    isreal, jordan, lebanon, saudi arabia et al. if they are under attack by iran via proxy terrorist organizations, then do you not believe that is their problem to negotiate not the problem of the united states. the fact that they are willing to continue to suffer attacks suggests iran is not that big a deal to them. wait...oh yeah, because the united states will kindly sacrifice lives, treasure and sacred honor on behalf of them all in the name of freedom.

    if in fact iran is influencing iraq, well, i am not surprised, and would only be surprised if they were not. i do not see how you can count that against them as something sinister since iraq is a bordering nation, one whom they have warred with. it is obviously in their immediate interest to shape the new government of iraq and that is an issue the people of iraq need to negotiate.

    i mean the united states has been in the same dirty business for nearly a century, in lebanon, in iran, in iraq, in saudi arabia, in isreal, in afganistan, in pakistan, in the balkans, in cuba, in columbia, in panama, in taiwan, in philippines, in cambodia, in vietnam all over the world. and you are flabbergasted that iran runs arms to iraq?

    yes i am deluded, because i do not believe iran has a death wish. the hardliners are losing influence and in a generation their power shall fade unless it is given reason to remain. there is no nation on the face of the earth that would even risk the reprisal that would result from a sponsored first or second-hand nuclear attack on the united states. people are stupid. but not that stupid. also, if iran ever constructs a nuclear weapon you can bet your bottom dollar that they will want to keep it. next to their oil reserves that would be their greatest leverage. weapons grade uranium is just not something you cavalierly pass out like candy to seven year olds. especially when many of those seven year olds do not like you.

    "because emperor bush is bored." c'mon now, i would have thought you might have afforded me a little more credit than that. i use the name bush meaning his entire administration. i am not so naive as to believe bush proper runs a thing. however, bush and his administration are anything but bored but yes all it takes in fact is a word since the congress deferred that responsibility to bush as in the administration. (and yes i understand congress actually gave that power up in korea).

    if people after thousands of years as you mentioned cannot figure out the benefits of minding your own business instead of the business of others then perhaps you are right this isn't the twilight zone its a handbasket if you know what i mean and i know you know.
     
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Very well said rvsp.

    And one more thing:Even if Iran actually gets a nuclear weapon,do you think they would be so stupid to attack Israel with it?First of all,their image with the Arabs would collapse instantly
    because they would definetely have to hurt Arabs as well.That area is tiny.Where would they hit?West Bank on the East,Gaza on the south,Jerusalem in the middle,where?Tel-Aviv?North Israel?That is too close to Lebanon and Syria.If they did such an awful thing they would first get the Arabs angry and then lose credit from all their European and other investers or friends.They know that in the end they would be the ones to lose.

    I don't think they are that stupid.
     
  5. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Yet the Arab world doesn't lift a finger to help Palestinians. They are actually PUSHING them into confrontation with the Israeli's.



    Iran has been funding Hezbollah, Hamas, and other terrorist organizations for years. iran won't attack Israel directly, they would galdly give weaponry to another organization to do it for them.

    Second, i don't think you understand how incredibly anti-semetic and racist the Middle East is. The horrifying things you read, such as Palestinian newspapers saying Jews use the blood of Palestinian children to make Matzo bread, staging events to create heros of suicide bombers, etc. It's not about logic, it's about history and tradition. Israel has been invaded many times since it was founded in 1948. And I am sure it will be again before long.
     
  6. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    And it should be.
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    1.Again it's the same thing.Hizbollah and Hamas are not so stupid to attack their own soil and kill thousands of Palestinians.Because that area,I don't know if you noticed it,is so small they all live close to each other.So if anyone attacked Israel with a nuclear bomb they would destroy the entire area and kill everyone:Hebrews,Arabs,Beduins,foreigners.Everyone.

    2.The Arab world gives money to palestinians and other aid.You are partially right that they don't lift a finger to help Palestinians because the richest of them like Saudi Arabia,UAE,Kuwait etc.don't care.They love their comfort and money and pleasure and riches that they have from the oil and from being the good boys of the West.Second,the rest of the Arab countries that still care are too weak to help them.

    3.Have you ever thought about why most of the Middle-East is anti-semetic?And why Arabs have invaded the State of Israel so many times since 1948?

    And I seriously doubt that there will invade Israel again soon.That would be really stupid.Syria can hardly defend against Israel,Egypt the same,Jordan doesn't care anymore,Iraq is under American occupation,Lebanon of course can't even defend 2 cities against Israel and Iran would have to fight USA and Israel together along with their allies if they attacked Israel.The only country that could invade Israel effectively is perhaps Russia or China.
     
  8. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    The world was a better place in many ways when nations were far apart and travel took months, communication took weeks, and nations essentially looked out for their own interests. Things change. Like it or not we have a global economy driven through trade, imports, exports, investing, and marketing not limited to our own shores. Of course these nations would negotiate, but what good does negotiating do for a nation like Israel which is small. They have virtually no bargaining tools if it wasn't for the US's staunch support of Israel.

    I'm not flabbergasted at all Iran is trying to meddle. However they play the innocent card while supplying terrorists and insurgent groups with advanced weaponry, including armor piercing IED technology.

    Again, Iran can easily deny all involvement if they can secretly hand over technology to a second party. Without the IAEA being able to confirm how much uranium they have, how they catalog it, how they store it, and how they use it, they are basically free to do whatever they want with it. There is a reason weapons specialists in the United States have been worried for decades over the suitcase bombs of the Soviet Union, the technology is simple, cheap, and easily used compared to any other type of nuclear weaponry. Many Arabic nations were in or are near former Soviet nations, and if they were able to get their hands on a black market piece and were able to use it, or retrofit it with enriched uranium, there would be trouble.

    Again, this is turning into an economics discussion, isolationism versus globalization, etc. There are so many pros and cons to each it is mind boggling. Let's get back on the topic at hand if we can.
     
  9. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Hopefully you don't mean that Israel should be invaded.
     
  10. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    An interesting poll...

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...s_stopped_nuclear_weapons_development_program

    It seems only 18% of Americans believe Iran actually suspended its nuclear program. That's a staggeringly low number, if that total is only Democrats that still means 64% of Democrats think Iran still is trying to develop nuclear weapons. This is AFTER the updated report saying Iran stopped its weapons program in 2003.

    However, like I was saying before, given their actions, who wouldn't be at the very least suspicious of Iran?
     
  11. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm when you invade enemy territory, you can kinda expect to be fought back, huh?
     
  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    And after all the bull we've heard from Bush and his governments why shouldn't we be suspicious of them?

    "Serbians are killing people!"

    Booo!Kill Serbians!Albanians,Croatians,Skopjans,Slovenians everybody else who is on our side is good!

    "Saddam has attacked Kuwait and his soldiers are killing babies in the hospitals!"(It's the Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter lying actually but who cares the people only knew after the war)
    Kill Saddam now!

    "We suddenly discovered that Taliban are evil.Look,here's a video that we've had in our posession for years but just decided to show it to you,they're shooting a woman!"(where's Bin Laden?Aren't you supposed to have captured him after 7 years?)

    Let's go to Afghanistan and kill those bastards.I can't tell the difference between Aghanis and Talibans but hey let's kill them all!

    "Saddam has weapons of mass destruction"

    The bastard!Let's invade Iraq and free the Iraqi people.

    "Oops you know what?Saddam didn't have weapons of mass destruction after all,but hey I'll bet Iran must be making some!"(Reports show that Iran hasn't been making any nuclear weapons and isn't interested to make any)
     
  13. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    So true ;)
     
  14. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    You're making no sense.
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    And so are you when you don't see some matters from both ways,you don't see both sides of the coin.You only support US and Israel in a really how could I say it...blind way?
     
  16. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    *Sigh*

    I don't even know where to start.

    Bosnia was not Bush. That was Clinton, and a very large number of conservatives did not support action in Bosnia. The same reason why Liberals and not conservatives want to step in Sudan, the genocide in Sudan does not effect America, neither did the genocide in Bosnia. In this case it is Bush and other conservatives pushing for the national community to step in, not just us, so you're completely backwards as far as the Bosnian war goes.

    Second, we didn't just "SUDDENLY" discover the Taliban were "evil". In case you didn't know, since the Afghanistan-Russian war we have kept tabs on the Taliban when they rose to power, and even during the Clinton administration the CIA were pushing towards assainating Osama Bin laden because they knew he was stirring up trouble, plotting attacks, and was going to be bad news for the US (which he certainly was). This was the case with former National Security Advisor Sandy Berger when he actually denied some Special OPS troops for taking him out back in 1996.

    The Taliban has been expelled from Afghanistan (they're mostly hiding in the mountains and can't even show their faces without getting killed) and now Afghanistan has a stable government. So you're "Lets kill them all!" assertion is outrageously childish in a debate forum. It belittles whatever position you have because you have absolutely no way to back up your assertion in any way, shape, or form.

    Iraq has been debated enough. And again I ask, when Iran is enriching uranium that can be used in nuclear weaponry, had a nuclear weapons program, is investing in long rage ballistic missiles, and refuses to let the IAEA inspect their facilities, what do you think they are up to?
     
  17. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Please. i haven't seen you do anything but post anti-American rhetoric. I have admitted many things.

    1. Iraq is a mess and should have never been started.
    2. Israel is not a perfect nation and has committed crimes of their own, but not even 1 /10,00th the scale their Arab neighbors bent on genocide has.
    3. The US has been involved in wars and nation building when it isn't even related to US Security. (Bosnia, Balkans, etc.).
    4. Bush spends like a drunken sailor and refuses to do anything about illegal immigration.

    But the fact remains when people try to alter the historical account of what has happened in the worlds events, I step in.

    Here's a good idea, why don't you list the things you LIKE about America rather than taking an opposing stance all the time?
     
  18. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Bush or Clinton it doesn't matter.

    You only decided to care about the Afghanis drastically in 2001 although you knew they were suffering earlier.


    Code:
    The Taliban has been expelled from Afghanistan (they're mostly hiding in the mountains and can't even show their faces without getting killed) and now Afghanistan has a stable government. So you're "Lets kill them all!" assertion is outrageously childish in a debate forum. It belittles whatever position you have because you have absolutely no way to back up your assertion in any way, shape, or form.
    The Taliban have returned to Aghanistan and seem to be stronger.Watch some documentaries.Afghanistan has a stable government in an unstable country.How good is that?The "Kill them all" thing describes the average American's attitude when they tell him that someone is evil.In this case although the Taliban are evil,the average American can hardly tell the difference between an Afghani and a Taliban.Also i was talking about all the "mistakes" the Americans did during the war in Afghanistan and killed many civilians.A little bit of healthy sarcasm is not bad!;)

    Tell me again what have the latest reports about the nuclear program of Iran revealed?And why should Israel be allowed to have weapons of mass destruction and not Iran?Or why should Pakistan or India be allowed to have weapons of mass destruction?


    Code:
    1. Iraq is a mess and should have never been started.
    2. Israel is not a perfect nation and has committed crimes of their own, but not even 1 /10,00th the scale their Arab neighbors bent on genocide has.
    3. The US has been involved in wars and nation building when it isn't even related to US Security. (Bosnia, Balkans, etc.).
    4. Bush spends like a drunken sailor and refuses to do anything about illegal immigration
    .

    1.Glad you understand that man.
    2.See you say that Israel is just not perfect and has committed crimes of its own,but not even 1/10,00th of the scale of what the evil Arabs did.Hmmm.....isn't that a little bit TOO MUCH pro-Israeli response?:p
    3.Yes because it's about geopolitics,control of the areas,influence,getting resources,power demonstration and interests.
    4.That's your problem.



    Code:
    Here's a good idea, why don't you list the things you LIKE about America rather than taking an opposing stance all the time?
    I used to be crazy about USA when I was a kid.I used to dream that I go to the Lincoln memorial,I was the guy who wanted to start a baseball team in my neighborhood,I have a baseball bat,glove,I was crazy about dollars and everything american.From 50's fridges,to Cadillacs,to traditional american coffee houses/bars like we see in the movies.I had a huge poster of the Statue of Liberty in my room that my mom had bought for me as a gift.And I really thought they were the good guys every time they had a war.But when I started growing up a bit more I realized that things weren't the way i thought they were.After the war in the Balkans and NATO's bombing of Serbia and this war against the Serbians that they Americans were making,made me wonder if USA is really the good guy.And after their backstabs and no support in Greek national matters like the Macedonian matter,Cyprus and other stuff and their bully attitude i started disliking them and their arrogant attitude.
     
  19. Runelord

    Runelord New Member

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    I was looking on another forum recently about this topic, well to be more specific what would happen if the U.S decided to attack Iran. And I saw the following post, and it chilled me.

    ..."If the United States attacks Iran either this summer or this fall, the American people had better be prepared for a shock that may perhaps be even greater to the national psyche (and economy) than 9/11. First of all, there will be significant U.S. casualties in the initial invasion. American jets will be shot down and the American pilots who are not killed will be taken prisoner - including female pilots. Iranian Yakhonts 26, Sunburn 22 and Exocet missiles will seek out and strike U.S. naval battle groups bottled up in the narrow waters of the Persian Gulf with very deadly results. American sailors will be killed and U.S. ships will be badly damaged and perhaps sunk. We may even witness the first attack on an American Aircraft carrier since World War II.

    In the immediate aftermath of the U.S. invasion of Iran, the price of oil goes to $200.00 - $300.00 dollars a barrel on the open market. If the war is not resolved in a few weeks, that price could rise even higher. This will send the price of gasoline at the pump in this country to $8.00-$10.00 per gallon immediately and subsequently to even higher unthinkable levels.

    If that happens, this country shuts down. Most Americans are not be able to afford gas to go to work. Truckers pull their big rigs to the side of the road and simply walk away. Food, medicine and other critical products are not be brought to stores. Gas and electricity (what is left of the short supply) are too expensive for most people to afford. Children, the sick and elderly die from lack of air-conditioned homes and hospitals in the summer. Children, the sick and elderly die in the winter for lack of heat. There are food riots across the country. A barter system takes the place of currency and credit as the economy dissolves and banks close or limit withdrawals. Civil unrest builds.

    The police are unable to contain the violence and are themselves victims of the same crisis as the rest of the population. Civilian rule dissolves and Martial Law is declared under provisions approved under the Patriot Act. Regular U.S. Army and Marine troops patrol the streets. The federal government apparatus is moved to an unknown but secure location. The United States descends into chaos and becomes a third world country. Its time as the lone superpower is over.

    It doesn’t get any worse than this.

    Then the first Israeli bomber drops its nuclear payload on Tehran".....


    It may be a worse case scenario, but it could happen. And it scares me.
     
  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Add to that the Tor M1 short-range missile systems that Iran recently bought from Russia and the fact that Iran has a much better army than Iraq did,a much bigger population than Iraq(About 60,000,000 from which 2/3 are young people)and has a much more mountainous terrain similar perhaps to that of Afghanistan on the contrary with Iraq.Apart from all that I saw in a documentary that around 50,000 Iranians are ready to become "martyrs" in case of a war with USA.Now that's really scary...