Illegal Immigration in the USA

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Alchemist, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration


    Are you sincerely suggesting that a government that was founded upon freedom of speech should do such a thing. That if someone says something that we don't like that we should deny them citizenship? If anything, I commend these people. They are speaking up for what they believe. They were not unruly, disrespectful, violent, or otherwise negative. They were simply forming a protest to a law that would greatly affect them, letting us as a society see how many of them there are, how much they contribute, and how badly they WANT to be here. I can't fathom that our government should hang a sign on the door of the immigration office that says, "Sorry, you expressed dissent, take your toys and go home, the sandbox is closed." :rolleyes:
     
  2. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    Excuse me but do you not know whats going on?
    Not Violent, not unruly, not dis-respectful?
    Are you serious?

    There were protestors throwing rocks and such at police officers, they are literally spitting on America by protesting here while they are ILLEGAL! You claim freedom of speech, but guess what darlin, these rights apply to U.S. Citizens. Noone here ILLEGALLY has the right to protest in OUR streets like this.
    If they want in America so badly why not do it the right why, why sneak across ( spitting in the faces of those actually going about it the right way ) then protest our government and waving their own countries flag ( even saw a few mexican flags sewn together with the american flag ).

    Why dont they protest their own sorry government. Its the Mexican's goverment fault for having such a crappy econonmy, now he just wants to push the poverty stricken out of Mexico and into America. Stop protesting here and protest where it really counts.

    And again I say, dont give me that boohoo crybaby crap about how hard it is to become a citizen here. If its bad enough in your old country where you have to move to have a decent life, wouldnt you think it would be worth it. Aww boohoo, its not easy, so what! Life isnt easy.
    Guess what, while it is not a simple task, and it does take five years, They get to LIVE HERE DURING THE TIME THEY ARE BECOMING A CITIZEN!

    People complain all the time about how hard it is to become an american citizen, but fail to see that its easier to become one here than anywhere else. America IS the MOST lax on illegal immigration PERIOD!! no IFS ANDS OR BUTS!
    If an illegal immigrant got caught protesting the goverment in any other country they would be arrested THEN deported IF they were lucky.

    If they all left it would not cause the american businesses to come to a grinding hault, all it would mean is that they would have to hire AMERICAN citizens for REAL wages. THE ONLY...ONLY...ONLY reason illegals get these jobs is because they are willing to work for SLAVE wages.

    Think of it this way...its the only logical way to see it.

    Your sitting at home when all of a sudden some stranger busts in your window and starts using your resources, your water, your food, your electricty, starts taking your money, all the while demanding you do more for them.
    Would you allow that? or would you prefer someone knocking on your door and asking for permision.

    hmmmm...lets see...what is the correct answer here...
     
  3. Dwimmerlaik

    Dwimmerlaik Captain of Despair

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    Re: Illegal Immigration


    if your not a citizen of the US, what god damn rigths do you have? key thing, you dont have any.

    and they are very unruly and disrepectful to authority.
     
  4. Bard

    Bard Erchamion

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    Yeah, they would have the right to protest if they were citizens. But they are not...so I don't really see where they are coming from...
     
  5. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    I see quite a bit of emotion in these posts. I understand that this is a subject that really moves some people, and I can even appreciate the passion in defending/debating a point of view. What I do not appreciate is debating with someone who is coming at it with blinders on. It does not seem as if you (the collective you, not specifically one person, as I would not be so crass as to single out anyone :halo: )care to debate this topic at all; the pros vs the cons, the fallout of deporting vs the fallout of turning a blind eye, manners that this should best be dealt with, etc. It seems as if this thread is just a place to vent about it rather than actually internalize it, throw it about in ones mind, and volley a few points of view(or would that be point of views? hmmm).

    Yes, I can fully recognize that a very very small iota of the protestors were in fact unruly. I do give my full apologies for speaking before bringing myself up-to-date; last I had heard the demonstrations were almost entirely peaceful, if a bit unorganized and willy nilly. I confess to last updating myself hours before posting. Ahhh, such is life with children, my world knowledge is always a day late and a dollar short... However, if one were going to classify all of the protestors together and paint them with a single brush, even the most dour of opinions must be forced to admit that the vast majority of the protestors did not fall victim to playing the idiot and begin throwing rocks and debris at law enforcement whilst lobbying for their desire to be allowed to stay.

    Nor do I feel as if it is their *right* to be allowed to protest here, I just find it terribly ironic that in the country that feels strong enough about freedom of speech as to have included in our Constitution, that we should seek to quiet those who exercise that human desire to speak and be heard. I agree that it is not likely that any other country would allow such protest to take place. Although, I think with that statement one must ask themselves why we as a nation did allow that when others would not. Is it possibly because no other nation would allow its borders to be so easily broken, therefore not allowing the sheer number of illegals into their country to begin with? Or could it be that no other country to where so many immigrants flock would allow illegals to become so integrated into many areas of their economy, therefore forming a reliance upon said illegals? Or maybe it is because we have no idea how to gain control over the situation without shooting ourselves in the foot.

    I would also like to address the point that Alchemist keeps reiterating. It is completely false that a person is guaranteed to be allowed to live here while undergoing the immigration process. They can, at any time before being given a permant residence card, be deported. It takes nearly a year to get that card. That is in an ideal situation where one speaks English so they can understand the process, where one has a US citizen sponsoring their residency(both legally and financially), where one has a skilled profession, where one has all of the proper paperwork(birth certificate, several forms of ID, and valid paperwork to name a few), where one has the money to submit said paperwork(it costs hundreds of dollars on several occasions to submit paperwork), where one has permanent housing....the list goes on and on. Not that all of thee hoops offer an excuse for not becoming legal residents, it does however offer multiple reasons. Since we do realistically need many of these folks, it seems as if the logical recourse would be to allow a higher quota, simplify the process or at the vary least rework it, and hold the US citizens breaking the law by hiring illegals responsible for their actions. They won't come to work if there is no work.
     
  6. Bard

    Bard Erchamion

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    I feel strong about freedom of speech, when it is given to those who have earned it. If they are going to protest, then they should be able to pay taxes and live in this country by the rules of everyone else.
     
  7. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    Dude, the only reason US shoppers enjoy low low prices for just about everything is that it's picked/assembled/delivered by lowly paid workers. If in this utopian vision you have of the US working system, the bottom rung of workers had to be paid double or triple or more than what the current illegals are getting paid, what do you think would happen to those low low prices? And where would you get 11 million American workers from to replace the illegals? Do you honestly think that 11 million Americans are lining up to clean toilets and pick fruit and build houses?

    American shoppers demand low prices. Scrupulous American businesses hiring Americans for full wage are forced to compete with unscrupulous businesses willing to hire illegals for a fraction of the wages. They can then sell thigns much cheaper and still make a profit. The shopper doesn't care why it's cheaper, they just want it to be cheaper. So the scrupulous American company has to relocate to China or hire illegal immigrants. It's happening in every country, including Australia. Aussie companies that don't want to, are having to relocate production to Asia in order to compete with other companies doing the same thing. So the slave wages aren't the only reason illegals get jobs - Joe Public wanting low low prices is a huge contributing factor. DOn't think for one minute that the illegals and businesses don't both benefit from each other, hence Tinuviel's "symbiotic" comment.

    I'll say it again to avoid confusion - if you landed illegally in Australia, you'd get shipped right back to wherever you came from. If you came here illegally applying for asylum (which we get a lot of) then the government will put in a detention centre for the next 3-5 years to be "processed". But that's a whole 'nother debacle that I won't get into here.
    So I'm not supporting illegal immigrants. But seriously dude, getting rid of illegals would have a huge economic impact and you can't seriously deny that. If everything everywhere went up 30% in price (just a number picked at random) imagine the howls of protest.
     
  8. volksmenner

    volksmenner practitioner of æsthetics

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    i don't buy it. the u.s. economy would not collapse if there were no illegal workers. it doesn't happen in other first world countries that do not have such illegal workers. their prices do not break any bank. niether would prices here in the u.s.

    if illegal immigrants were deported. large corporate farms may go down but small family owned farms would fill the gap. i am not going to cry over corporate losses.

    second yes i believe you could fill jobs such as construction and janitorial positions with legal citizens. illegal immigrants are not the foundation of the united states. are janitors and construction workers illegal mexicans in japan? i don't think so. are they illegal mexicans in the netherlands? probably not. they are japanese and dutch citizens.
     
  9. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    I find it hard to believe that with all the money and resources that the US has at its disposal, that they couldn't lock down their borders tighter than a fish's bumhole if they didn't want to. I know it's a huge area to patrol, but if the government was serious about it I'm sure they'd allocate more funding in the budget.

    Australia's problem with illegal boat people is that we're very close to Indonesia and Papua New Guinea, we've got a massive coastline to patrol, and we don't allocate enough money or resources to patrol the areas. We're maybe 75% as large as the USA but it's our whole northern and north-western coastline that's a potential landing site for illegals.
     

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  10. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    I'm not saying your economy would collapse. I'm saying it would make a huge difference to countless companies if their staff costs went up 300%. Those costs woudl have to get passed on to the consumer, just as lower staff or production costs mean that savings get passed on to the consumer.

    Most other countries don't rely on tips. Here in Australia we don't tip, so employers must pay their staff higher wages because that's all they get.
    When I was 18 and working as a casual in a cafe or mowing lawns, I was still getting minimum $10/hr plus 9% superannuation. If you're a full tiem employee, you also get 10-20 days paid annual leave, 5-10 days paid sick leave, and we also have a government sponsored medical system that means a doctor's visit is $50 rather than $500. And we can claim back about $30 of those $50 from Medicare, no medical insurance required. Private health insurance is an option, not a necessity. The public health system is under funded and it ain't perfect, but I'll still take it.

    And let me tell you, I spent 3 months in the USA and there's a yawning chasm between the prices you pay for things, and the prices other countries pay for them. Almost 300 million people makes for a population with huge economic clout, so fair enough. But those low prices are largely possible due to illegal workers being paid bugger all, and/or production now being shipped to China. Try finding somethign in Walmart that's not made in China.

    So if all of America is happy to pay higher prices on just about every single thing you buy, then by all means, reactivate your factories, and hire only American workers. I can't see that happening though. Voting to get rid of illegal immigrants sounds peachy keen, but try getting votes on a platform of "I will make your shopping bill much more expensive!" Which is exactly what would happen.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2006
  11. volksmenner

    volksmenner practitioner of æsthetics

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    i don't agree with out sourcing or the walmart-china dichotomy. indeed u.s. industries need to "reactivate" locally. just as they say "government is local," so should economy be local.

    and where are you getting these numbers that staffing costs would go up 300%? for some industries but no where near the majority. u.s. companies need to abide by u.s. laws and not hire illegal workers. it is the law. i don't care if costs rose temporarily. the market would adjust itself.

    i admit u.s. wages, social security and health insurance needs to be overhauled. but these things will never happen because the u.s. is in league with big business. the right and left hand as it were. earlier i was watching c-span and the house of representatives discuss oil prices. gas prices at the pump have rose 100% since 2000 from $1.45 to $2.91 nationwide while oil companies post record profits. in one of the recent energy bills past by congress, the u.s. even waved the taxes it imposed on oil companies for the rights to drill. this is one factor why the u.s. will not secure the borders, it favors big business, as dare i say, lobbists for big business are the defacto legislative and executive branch of the u.s. government.
     
  12. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    I partially agree with you. I do agree with the point that the businesses highering them should be held accountable, thats obvious and in my book, and the same with "They wont come if there is no work". Thats part of what this "law" is trying to do.

    But i think you are wrong about the immigration process. Yes, its difficult, yes its timely, but if its really worth it then that shouldnt matter. And yes they can be deported within that first year trying to obtain residency but it has to be justifiable. Our laws do not allow us to deport for no reason. Other countries, namely mexico, have those kind of laws. But not here in America. There has to be a justifiable reason, ie. breaking the law.
    Actually they dont HAVE to speak English to understand the process, we do have translators. If not then explain to me how Legal immigrants are here...Legally...and cant speak english.

    English is apart of becoming a citizen in most cases, mainly dealing with the younger of the immigrants, and the U.S. provides help in that case. And whenever the new law passes they are given a Vast amount of help to learn, understand and speak english.

    I cannot see how some people see this as cruel to illegal immigrants. Its actually helping them. By forcing them to become Legal, then they cannot be hired for pennies and hour. I loathe the companies that do this...its disgusting.
    Just because I feel that Illegal Immigration is Illegal ( hence the name ) doesnt mean I dont want Immigrants here. I want them here Legally. All in all its in their best interest.

    oh and rvsp, dont get me started on oil prices lol...Oy
     
  13. Lord_Croanan

    Lord_Croanan King and Conquerer

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    Illegal Immigration

    I'm suprised no-one's started a thread like this, and if they have, just combine mine and thiers, but what are your opinions on this subject? For America, its obviously the issue of mexican immigrants crossing the border illegaly, but for the Europeans, I have heard of some illegal immigratioin from North Africa.

    What should be the requirements for being a citizen, and how should a government treat illegal ones they've caught? What would you do if an immigrant seeked sanction in your house from the police?

    When I visit the states, my parents home is in the north, so I'm not all that affected by immigration from Mexico. I don't know the negative impact it has on the economy, but if they want to try and live out the American dream, I say let them try and make some money. (And seriously, if anyone knows how much a dollar is worth in Mexico, you'll understand thier desire to come over)

    Yes, normally I would be hestitant to let them over becouse they are breaking the law, but it takes ten years to become an American citizen....a decades a long time when you live in poverty.

    Thats just my opinion, again, besides racism, I havn't heard of any economic reasons why they should leave.
     
  14. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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  15. Lord_Croanan

    Lord_Croanan King and Conquerer

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    Ahoy, didn't see that one
     
  16. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    The search button is your friend.
     
  17. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    Threads merged.
     
  18. volksmenner

    volksmenner practitioner of æsthetics

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    the senate just defeated the immigration (amnesty) bill yet again today. indeed a sure cause for celebration if ever. but one must remember that this bill has been defeat time and again to only be resurrected this last time instantly. apparently the will of the people resonated quite loudly within the halls of congress, as it most always should, superseding the "electioneering" will of the president & co. (pres. bush II, sec. chertoff and sec. gutierrez).

    the defeated senators are once again saying that the bill is dead, that it has no hope of coming to the floor until 2009. in the words of our great leader, "fool me once, shame on — shame on you. fool me — you can't get fooled again."
     
  19. Bones

    Bones New Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    Is there some part of the word "illegal" that some of you don't understand? What are laws for if they are not enforced, in a democracy such as the U.S.?
     
  20. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    For the non-Americans, can someone outline exactly what this bill proposed, and who supported it and who didn't?