Illegal Immigration in the USA

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Alchemist, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. volksmenner

    volksmenner practitioner of æsthetics

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    Re: Illegal Immigration

    concerning issues of such great import, i try to vision the complete picture rather than the pixel of any particular moment in time. so let me preface my comment by stating that my greatest concern regarding this bill, s1639, is not illegal immigration alone, but the national sovereignty of the united states of america. this bill is another piece of the puzzle that makes up the abomination of a north american union. now some may say that is just a conspiracy, but you can read the documents and other information coupled with your own research at spp.gov, stopspp.com (the previously undisclosed spp documents gained by human events' jerome corsi after filing a foia (freedom of information act) request), cfr.org (building a north american community).

    the republican tradition is rooted in conservative issues such as border security and enforcement of standing immigration law. president bush's policy is anything but republican much less conservative on a number of issues the least of which is border security and illegal immigration. bush, in 2005 signed an illegal document with the canadian prime minister and mexican president at baylor university in waco, texas called the security and prosperity partnership of north america accord. just another piece of the puzzle like nafta, cafta, ftaa, trans texas corridor, nafta superhighway and all other monstrosities emanating out of the cfr and internationalist think tanks ect.

    the eu, which is fifty years old, began much the same way out of trade agreements, only now emerging openly without any regard to the member nations.

    any way here is some of the failings of s1639 summed up by sen. sessions.

    Sen. Sessions Releases List of 20 Loopholes in the Senate Immigration Bill

    as regard to this bill specifically, congress tried to pass a weak bill that incompetently addressed the symptom of illegal immigrants present, rather than the root cause that is our porous borders and ports.

    it is quite simple. illegal immigrants by their nature break the law. the law was instituted for a very good reason, which has absolutely nothing to do with the ridiculous claims of racism or xenophobia. the issue above all other issues, secure the border first! then and only then, can a legitimate discussion take place concerning illegal immigrants already present in the u.s.

    if illegal immigrants want to better life, than enter the u.s. or any other nation of their choice legally, or bring about change in their home country through legislation, protest, civil disobedience ect. the state of mexico supports illegal immigration for a number of reasons, one likely being that it is a pressure release valve on their socioeconomically suppressed population.

    the people of mexico need to fight for their liberty and rights in mexico and not here in the united states.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2007
  2. Arya

    Arya New Member

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    Immigration in the US

    WARNING: Long winded tale follows, but I promise - there is actually a question - actually, a few questions.

    I'm Australian. I moved to the US in 2003, on an alien fiancee visa, to marry my now-ex husband. The rules stipulated that within 90 days of my entering the US, I marry him. I did. I was given employment authorization upon entry, valid for three months. I was to report to the immigration office for an extension of this employment visa. I did, and was given an employment authorization for one year.

    During that year, I was to file for permanent resident status (greencard). I filed my application. During that time, my employment authorization ran out, but not before I had filed for an extension of it. My file was lost between processing centers, and I had to quit my job as it was no longer legal for me to work without proper documentation. I did.

    I was unemployed for three months, when finally my TEMPORARY permanent resident card came through. Luckily for me, the company I worked for held my job for me. I went back to work.

    My marriage failed, and my temporary permanent residence was expiring in just a few months. I hired an attorney, filed the necessary paperwork, and waited. Again, due to slow processing times, I was unable to work because I had to wait for written evidence that I was legal to work in the united states.

    During this time, I remarried, and moved to another state. Well, that written evidence, was due to expire next month, and so on Friday I gathered up my paperwork, and went to the immigration office and explained the situation, and they gave me yet another one year extension, while waiting for my greencard (permanent residency).

    I have done everything by the book, immigration-wise. I've paid nearly $6000 in lawyer's fees, and immigration department filing fees. I've paid my taxes the whole time I've been here, because every moment that I have been legally able, I've been working.

    I pay social security that I can never claim. I pay unemployment that I can never claim.

    Living in America is a privilege to me, it's not something that should be handed to me on a silver platter. I wasn't born here, and I'm not yet a citizen (just a couple more years and I can apply). I've never complained that I need to pay to do so, or that I have so much red tape to wade through, or that I've had so much trouble to live and thrive here. I chose to come here, living here is a choice, and you have to do what you have to do, in order to do it right.

    That's how I feel about it.

    So what is this all about? Here are my questions.

    How do you feel about illegal immigrants coming into your country?

    How do you feel about the current immigration laws, and their complexity?

    Given the tragic and horrifying events of 9-11, do you, as an American citizen, feel safer, knowing these rules are in place?

    When amnesty was suggested, that illegal immigrants that had been here for more than 7 years be granted automatic citizenship if they come forward and declare themselves, how did that make you feel?

    Do you think that countries with living conditions that are less than our own should be given preferential treatment when it comes it immigration?

    Are you angered, as an American, that I, a person not of this country, am living and working here, working in a job that if I wasn't here, would belong to an American?



    These are just a few of my questions, and I thought that it would make for an interesting discussion. So how do YOU feel about immigration?
     
  3. Morgan_of_Salerone

    Morgan_of_Salerone New Member

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    Re: Immigration in the US

    I don't live in America, and I don't claim to be an expert on my country's immigration policies, either. However, I would be honoured to have a hard working person like you in my country. As for your questions...

    I'm not sure where I stand on illegal immigration. I want to protect all the people that come here (for I assume most illegal immigrants are trying to escape something), but I am frustrated with them at the same time because coming here doesn't necessarily mean a better life or freedom from persecution. I wish they could understand that. There are other reasons, but I just can't seem to get them down on paper, so to speak.

    I wouldn't particularily feel all that more protected knowing that strict immigration laws are in place, because if someone really wants to bomb something, they'll find a way to bomb it. I believe the best protection is good relations and peace. Of course, I understand that this will probably not happen any time soon, if at all.

    If a person has been living in a country and been participating as a good, productive citizen, I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to stay.

    To a certain extent, yes, I believe that people from countries with a lower standard of living should be given preferential treatment.

    I believe that a person from a first world country has just as much chance to go move to a different country to find work. If they lost that job to an immigrant, perhaps they should have worked harder in the first place.

    Just so you know, many of your questions have me torn between my practical side and my idealistic side, so I want to thank you for posting this. It was good to be made think. I hope my responses help you find whatever you are looking for. :)
     
  4. Bard

    Bard Erchamion

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    Re: Immigration in the US

    How do you feel about illegal immigrants coming into your country? I don't particularly like it, but they have to get here somehow and it can be unrealistic to wait as long as some people have to get in the country and work.

    How do you feel about the current immigration laws, and their complexity? I think there are way too many laws that are unneeded and I think the policies should be simplified.

    Given the tragic and horrifying events of 9-11, do you, as an American citizen, feel safer, knowing these rules are in place? No.

    When amnesty was suggested, that illegal immigrants that had been here for more than 7 years be granted automatic citizenship if they come forward and declare themselves, how did that make you feel? I thought that it could be a good idea, but I wasn't sure if it was a trick that the government was pulling to get all the illegal immigrants to show themselves!

    Do you think that countries with living conditions that are less than our own should be given preferential treatment when it comes it immigration? It really depends on the circumstance, I think.

    Are you angered, as an American, that I, a person not of this country, am living and working here, working in a job that if I wasn't here, would belong to an American? No, hell no. You worked to get here and I think you deserve the job you get. I can't stand when fellow Americans complain about people "stealing" jobs.
     
  5. Arya

    Arya New Member

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    Re: Immigration in the US

    Coming back to the thread, I want to thank you two for posting.

    I find it interesting to hear other people's opinions on this matter. I've never been a very political person, but I'm finding it harder and harder not to be, on this issue.

    Well, as is fair - I'll answer my own questions.

    Illegal immigrants - Irritate me. I worked my ass off to get to stay here, nearly had to file bankruptcy at one point, ashamedly, accepted a loan from a friend I only knew on the internet who wanted to help me so I could pay my fees, and I've worked and paid my taxes and all that jazz since I've been here, and been able to. I'm not unsympathetic towards people trying to escape a lesser form of life than we have here, but in my heart of hearts, I can't help feeling as though "If I have to do all this ... why don't they?"

    Current immigration laws and complexity - They were put in place, for a reason. I'm from a country that is allied with the US, and by and large - not a threat. So if it's this difficult for me to get to live and work here, it has to be for them, also. However, in every barrel, there's a rotten apple. Martin Bryant, in Port Arthur, killed something like 37 people. I know of people, who are intrigued by Timothy McVeigh, and think he did something spectacular. I'm glad for the laws that we have in place. They make my own life a bit harder, but I think it's better for the good of all. If it's this hard for me to get in and stay, then it's this hard for THEM to get in and stay, and I'm thankful for that.

    Safer since 9/11- Yes. Pre-9/11, I would be an American citizen now, simply because I married one. So if I was a person of ill-intent, imagine the freedoms I would have. Even though my life would have been much simpler, I prefer knowing that safeguards have been put in place.

    Amnesty - I'm of mixed minds. On one had, I'm apalled, and want to send the goverment an invoice for all my fees, the taxes and everything I have paid since I've been here, and demand my own citizenship. If they get it on a silver platter for doing nothing, why can't I have it when I've worked so hard? On the other hand, how do you tell a ten year old that they have to go home to a country they don't even know, because their parents did the wrong thing? How do you uproot a family that's been in place for a few generations, and send them to a country where they can't even speak the language, they're so Americanized?
    I'm not sure what the answer is there.

    Preferential treatment for countries with lower standards of living - It all depends on the circumstance. Was your standard of living lower because you refused to work and be an active member of society, or was your standard of living lower because of your country's economy, such that even working 3 jobs as my mother did (in Australia!), you still couldn't feed and clothe your family? This one depends on individual circumstance.

    Angry at non-Americans moving here and taking jobs - I could understand, if people said "What right do you have to march in here and take a job that could have been an American's"

    And perhaps this is just pride, but if it was YOUR job ... then how come I got it? In my current position, I've seen people breaking dress code deliberately "no one's going to tell me what to wear!", say they're going to the bathroom, and sneak out the back door for a smoke, take an hour and fifteen for lunch because "they didn't take their morning break", of course they didn't, but they went to the "bathroom" four times! Show up drunk, because they have "problems".

    Well, I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day. I still know that I am due at my desk, in my cubicle, lunch in the fridge, coffee made, computer on, and to be logged into all of my systems by 8am. I don't get paid to make coffee. I don't get paid to fuss with my lunch. I get paid, to work. Work starts at 8am.

    Heavy smoker that I am, I still know I get one smoke break, before lunch, and one after. They are lenient with me on my smoke breaks in the morning and afternoon, because I don't take a lunch hour.

    I sit at my desk, eat my lunch, and continue working. Sure, sometimes I'll play on the net for a bit, but I'm still there if someone needs something, or has a question. I don't have a car, I can't go out like the others all can, so it makes more sense.

    So yeah, I'm going to be pissed at someone for suggesting I'm stealing someone's job, if they're going to show the work ethic that I have seen repeatedly since I've been here. I LIKE going home at the end of the day, and feeling as though when Friday comes, I really deserve my paycheck.
     
  6. Arya

    Arya New Member

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    Re: Immigration in the US

    By the way, I did not at all mean to insinuate that the work ethic here in the US is poor. I have known many extremely hard workers, to the point that I am in awe of them. Consultants who have to go 3 weeks without seeing their wives or children. Analysts, such as myself, sending me their reports at 9pm. Please don't mistake my post,
     
  7. Kill frenzy

    Kill frenzy New Member

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    Re: Immigration in the US

    Every single thing you've said in this thread. I agree with 100%.

    Couldn't of said it better myself.
     
  8. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Re: Immigration in the US

    Illegal Immigration is a troubling subject.

    Against the tide of a majority of conservatives, i would grant illegals amnesty.

    it wouldn't be amnesty though, amnesty is the forgiveness of a crime. All illegals have to register to get an identity card. No business can hire illegals under the table, they have to have a tamper proof card (credit card companies can do it) to keep track of who is working where. Any illegal who does not register would face jail time, heavy fines, then deportation. There would also be a large penalty for gaining residency, my suggestion is $4000 for every adult over 18 in a family that needs to be paid off withing 2 years, either in solid payments or wage garnishing.

    It's harsh, but there needs to be a punishment. Those that can't afford it will simply have to self deport or face jail time and deportation.

    The fact is illegals take a lot from the system. They only pay sales tax, they don't pay income tax, property tax, state, federal, medicaid, medicare, the police and fire services they use, or anything you or I pay for.

    The worst excuse is, "They add to the economy".

    I'm sorry, but I'd rather pay an extra 50 cents a head for lettuce if there were fewer illegals. The $10 for lettuce argument is complete ballspit. How much do they pay for lettuce in all the other states without a large number of illegal immigrants? The amount varies by less than a dollar.

    What they take out of the economy by not paying taxes, the resources used (roads, hospitals, etc) dwarfs what they add to the economy since I pay a little less for my vegetables. It's like the kid who cleans his room by hiding everything under his bed. it's still filthy, you just can't see it.

    A wall across the border would stop virtually all illegal immigration. Israel built a wall between them and the West Bank. Suicide bombings dropped from literally dozens a week to none. If Islamic terrorists who want to kill people can't get across the wall, neither can illegals.

    There is no right to be a US citizen unless you are born here. there shouldn't even be that right anymore because pregnant women cross the border to have "anchor babies". The right to be a US citizen should only be reserved for those in the country legally, by visa, green card, or marriage as this thread started as.

    Instead this debate is hampered by racism. Not by racists who hate Mexicans, but racist mexicans who seem to hate everyone else.

    [​IMG]

    For this reason above, the plight of illegal immigrants does not mean much to me.

    They come to this nation, demand rights, demand citizenship, and demand to have their crimes of entering our country illegally to be forgiven, and they have the AUDACITY to take down the American flag, put up the Mexican flag, and then put the American flag on upside down???

    For these actions alone many Americans tolerate bigotry towards Mexicans. Frankly, this pisses me off a lot. Why the hell do they want to be here if they disrespect this country so much? Honestly, if Mexico is so great, LIVE THERE.

    It's not the USA's fault Mexico is such a poor corrupt country that they have to live off American scraps. Mexico is a deeply corrupt country, corrupt to the core. Any American who vacations in Mexico will tell you that most of the time you need to bring extra money to bribe cops who would otherwise arrest you for false reasons. Mexico has vast oil reserves, two gorgeous coastlines and a breeming tourist industry. yet they are literally a third world country.

    And last, I love being involved in the illegal immigration debate. I have been many times accused of being a bigot and a racist (onceon this website). Well, I am half Mexican. My mother's maiden name is Apadoca. It's not race that should be driving this issue, it's whether or not the US should be allowed to enforce its own laws.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2007
  9. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Re: Immigration in the US

    Now, I cannot answer this for all, but I have been to/seen many "rallies" around here (here being central Texas) and from what I heard and going from what they have said at their rallies is that they belong here. That Texas and other southern states belong to mexico, that these southern states are not apart of the U.S.
    I have heard that at every rally I have been to and seen, and I have witnessed many.

    Also I have heard at these rallies, though this next part is not as common, is that All of the U.S. is theirs, that they will soon take over the U.S. and make it theirs like it should be.
     
  10. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Re: Immigration in the US

    If they want those parts of the country they lost back, they're free to fight us again for them as they did before.

    Of course, depending on how far back we go, we could also point out the Spanish did a whole lot of raping and pilaging to get the lands now dubbed Mexico, so really we would have to give it all back to the Aztecs, Incas, Olmecs and other tribes that once existed here.

    The term "Re-conquista" is coming up a lot now. Mexicans really believe they can turn California and other parts of the country back into Mexico by "invading". This isn't idle chat, listen to any talk radio show in Spanish, it's enough to inflame race riots.
     
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Re: Immigration in the US

    Whehe, well isn't THAT cute, heh? I'm sure that has more to do with convenience then anything else. I know a country that has been claimed by outsiders about say 60 years ago. It's still a mess as ever it was. Free word of advice: Don't go there, it's a stupid thing to do.

    I don't have enough economic insight into the American macro-economic situation. I have heared it relies on in-flow of cheap labout (pushing the prices of minimum-wage jobs and enabling the economy to grow in ways it couldn't otherwise). Fact is that it happens. And, as the result of the current political situation, most of these are forced into illegality, assuming these people aren't stopped by such laws.

    As an interlude, I would like to say that this is probably a way of positive selection, only giving room to those who are willing to try, try and try again to lead a life better then what they have now. But that's just in the context.

    Back to immigration. I do NOT believe that terrorism has anything to do with making immigration laws stricter. I cannot imagine that a gouvernment becomes so paranoia to go to such lengths to "keep the baddies out". I think it has to do with other reasons, mainly given above.

    And as to Australia... I don't know whether you are aware Arya, but from a personal perspective I have to conclude that Australia is about as hard to immigrate to as the US. In fact, laws are pretty similar. I'm sure you're aware of this (if not, it's worth looking into :p). My question is: how does that make you feel?
     
  12. Bones

    Bones New Member

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    Re: Immigration in the US

    In U.S., the challenge is to enforce and beef up the immigration laws and stop letting so many illegals flood in here to mooch off our hard-earned prosperity and tax dollars...I am pretty hardline about this because I have to be...or pretty soon they'll be taking alot of our jobs...Wait a minute, that's happening already to alot of legal U.S. citizens, isn't it!
    Bones
     
  13. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    I've merged the new thread with the existing 6 pages of the old Illegal Immigration thread. If you've got half a day to spare, read the whole lot. There were some good points from all sides to be made.
     
  14. chimera_789

    chimera_789 Queen of Air and Darkness

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    How to Become an American Citizen:

    - arrive, steal land in the name of the king, promptly kick said king to the curb, establish own country
    - arrive as slave or indentured servant and await the whim of your “masters” to free you and then to determine that you are in fact a person
    - be born there
    - marry an Amer. citizen and be able to prove conformity to the whim of relavant government agent as to what constitutes an actual marriage
    - by default when the land you currently reside upon is bought, stolen or annexed by the United States
    - arrive prior to 1790 and basically get handed a piece of paper as you get off the boat
    - arrive between 1790 and 1795, be free, be white, be of good moral character, wait 2 yrs
    - arrive between 1795 and 1798, wait 5yrs, give at least 3yrs notice
    - arrive after 1798, wait 14 yrs, give at least 5yrs notice
    - arrive between 1892 and 1920, chill in line at Ellis Island for a couple of hours, pass physical inspection, wait requisite time period in residence
    - arrive between 1920 and 1954, be first in line and/or be from a large proportionally represented ethnic population already present in the US as determined by a prior census (pertinent census subject to change on whim of congress or president), chill at Ellis, pass inspection, wait requisite period
    - arrive between 1954 and 1965 same as above except no more Ellis
    - arrive, be first in line from your hemisphere (east/west), pass inspection, take class, ostensibly learn English, wait forever, take test, pass test


    *offers not valid:
    - to crazies, crooks, the ill, the infirmed, terrorists, potential spies, Cat Stevens, your tired, your poor, any and all huddled masses
    - to blacks before 1870
    - to Asians from 1870 to 1943
    - to anyone during the great depression
    - to Native Americans ever

    *Offers valid at participating locations only. All terms and conditions subject to the whims of congress and how much anyone is paying attention to Lou Dobbs at any given time. Prices may vary. Valid waiting periods may vary. Enforcement and compliance with any and all terms at any given time may vary; reasons for variance may include but are not limited to: resources, political differences, anyone’s potential personal gain, pervading levels of ethnocentrism, and general giving a crap. Offer valid only while supplies last. See nearest immigration lawyer for details. If you cannot afford a lawyer, you are SOL.
     
  15. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    So... you believe 400 years ago the Pilgrims should have honored some sort of immigration/land pact with the Indians even though the Indians here didn't even have anything resembling a constitutional government? Or should have several hundred years of democratic advances and reform been introduced in the Mayflower Compact? Or when the country had a low population from its founding until the early 1900's scrutinize everyone that got let into the country? Other than that it's cute.

    The biggest problem with the Ellis Island argument is despite the fact they became citizens easily, IT WAS STILL LEGAL. Does anyone think any ethnicity got a free ride in the US? Blacks, Irish, Italians, they were all scorned to a heavy degree. However the Irish and Italians assimilated into the country quite easily. Blacks, not so much but many are. Hispanics? Such a large percentage act as if they don't want anything to do with the US other than make money and send it home since Mexico is so poor and corrupt. I still find it amazing the amount of hispanics I run in to (I run security at my college on Saturday and Sunday during our swap meet which is at least 90 - 95% hispanic) who don't speak a word of english despite living in the US for years, decades even. The problem is they don't want to learn english. If Hispanics came to America and adopted into the American system, there wouldn't be nearly the problems there are today. However there are parts of my city which are nice, clean, and opulent. Then there's a heavy hispanic district where everything is written is spanish and the entire area is ran down. it doesn't even look like the same city. And no on told the hispanics to all merge into one area and run it into the ground, they did it themselves and PREFER to do it. That's half the problem these days.

    If I went to Mexico, demanded everyone around me learn english so that I'm not left out, crossed the border without documents and tried to get work, demand free health care and in state tuition to a major university... I would be locked up. They'd throw me in prison and when I get released they would deport me, and if I ever came back I would be arrested again and kept in prison for who knows how long.


     
  16. Hatter Madigan

    Hatter Madigan Mad Hatter Madigan

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    Most perplexing and confuzzled of problems...

    People work so hard to deny them citizenship...

    but if they are not citizens... how can they pay taxes?

    I like a ham sandwitch now.
     
  17. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Nobody is denying them citizenship. They just aren't applying and coming over illegally. Big difference.
     
  18. chimera_789

    chimera_789 Queen of Air and Darkness

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    mostly I was just making fun of how screwed up immigration law and the immigration situation in general is. As for Native Americans, I don't see how lacking a constitution automatically removed any entitlement to the land the owned lived on and made general use of. That being said, I stand by the statement in its essence as one way that people became American citizens. I'm not making any specific statement about current immigration policy with that one line. And at various times in our history we have denied Native Americans the ability to become citizens even several times retroactively removing citizenship previously bestowed. I think this is funny, in a this-is-kinda-ridiculous sort of way, both because the land of this country was once theirs and because this country was denying them any means of obtaining citizenship, when it placed no such restrictions on many peoples from other lands.

    Personally I believe immigration both legal and illegal to be a function of the labor market, thus as long as Americans hire illegal immigrants and access to legal means of immigration is restricted there will be illegal immigration. So I think relaxing the numbers restrictions on legal immigration, reducing the time it takes to obtain citizenship, and make the whole process streamlined and easier to accomplish is one aspect that could be improved. There really is little reason it should be so difficult or take so long. Immigration ristrictions now and throughout history have been largely arbitrary anyway. Plus since most immigrants of any kind come to work and one of the biggest gripes is that they take jobs by undercutting the price of a citizen's labor, the more immigrants who become citizens and are thus subject to the same minimum wage restrictions and taxes as everyone else, the better. Then they will have to compete on the same level as everyone else. When it becomes tougher for them to get jobs and there are fewer available and more competition, then immigration will slow. Which brings me to...The number one problem with illegal immigration is Americans themselves. If Americans did not hire illegal immigrants, they would not be here in any statistically significant numbers. The only way to truly fix this problem is to make it economically untenable for Americans to use this source of cheap labor. These are the people that perpetuate the problem, the ones who create the demand and set the rules of the market. These are the people who should be blamed if you want to blame someone. And as long as they continue, there will continue to be a market, because Americans want a minimum wage and maximum work hour restrictions and illegals just want a job any job, so the supply side is impossible to stop.
     
  19. chimera_789

    chimera_789 Queen of Air and Darkness

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/business/18bear.html?em&ex=1205985600&en=9b7c03f7d59ed6a2&ei=5087


    The world's smallest violin plays for the poor executives who have been financially "ruined" by the collapse of their bank. Like the one whose stock in the company was worth a billion dollars lst year--his stock is now only worth $28 million! ($28 million?!? Oh, whatever will he do.?) And then there there were those who didn't want to sell their stock, so they were "forced" to immediately put their weekend homes up for sale. They are devastated, devastated I tell you. How wll they live (with only one home)? How will they retire with their pension plans dissolving before their eyes.

    Pesonally, I'd just like to know how one is worth some $28 million and change and can be seriously worried about not having any money. Seriously, what exactly are you spending your money on?

    Also worth pointing out: The reason this financial institution collapsed is cuz it was securing/insuring banks against loss in their subprime/adjustable rate mortage lending practices. See the consumers defaulted on the mortgage, but the mortage had be "sold" so to speak to Bear, which saw no returns on its investment and found itself short of capital. Those consumers, btw, are now likely homeless, possibly bankrupt, possibly getting by on foodstamps, etc. Way to show perspective, executives!
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2008