How do the Sith feel disturbances and is there a hell in the Star Wars galaxy?

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by Cascador, Jun 29, 2008.

  1. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Long title for a thread. Well maybe there are longer ones, but that is not the question here. I was just thinking about these two simple things this morning. They crossed my mind before, but I didn't think it was worth it to create a thread about this. I've put both questions in the same thread. It's not worth it to put them in separate ones imo. It's just two simple questions.

    About the disturbances the Sith feel.

    My definitation of the Dark Side of the Force: The Sith neglect the Will of the Force for their own purposes. They use the Force which creates disturbances. Other things create disturbances too, like the death of billions of people, such as the destruction of Alderaan and the Jedi Purge in episode III. But how is the existence of Luke a disturbance in the Force? I don't think the Force has a Dark Side, at least not literally. It's how you use the Force that defines that you use the Dark Side of the Force. Balance in the Force is the Will of of the Force at peace. And the only way you can create balance is by killing the ones who create these disturbances in the Force. So yeah what are your thought what disturbances are in the Force. How did the Emperor feel a disturbance when he was talking to Vader about his son (Anakin's son btw, not Palpatine's of course lol) in 'The Empire Strikes Back'.

    Hell!

    Han Solo mentions Hell, again in 'The Empire Strikes Back'. The exact quote is:

    Officer: Your tauntaun will freeze before he reaches the first marker!
    Han: Then I'll see you in Hell!

    Hell... (It's the subject, gentlemen and ladies.... I'm not swearing.... I swear). How does Hell exist in the SW universe. I know not everybody has the same belief such as in the Force. Han didn't believe in the Force at first.

    Quote ANH:
    Han: Hoaky religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
    Luke: You don’t believe in the Force, do you?
    Han: Kid, I’ve flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I’ve seen a lot of strange stuff, but I’ve never seen anything to make me believe that there is one all-powerful force controlling everything. There’s no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. It’s all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

    But he believed in it later. He did believe in the Force in 'The Empire Strikes Back', when he mentions Hell. So is it just an error in the script? (No GL didn't write the script, he created the story, so don't bash him please... Thank you.) Is it just a saying? Did anyone else here on this forum read about Hell in Expanded Universe? I saw the line "Go to Hell!" in a graphic novel called 'Star Wars Infinities', which isn't canon at all. I'm probably putting too much though in this LOL.... Still it's interesting imo.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2008
  2. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    i'm not sure about the hell part, but my thoughts on the former are that anything that effects the force as they see it would be a disturbance, thus the lighter acts would cause a disturbance for the sith as surely as alderaan for the jedi. i believe the sith could sense luke because he represented those things they despised. with his every act he effected the force as a whole, as with his destruction of the death star
     
  3. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    A well answer, but there's a difference in sensing things, like death or the presence of another being in the Force and sensing disturbances. They are not really disturbances. Maybe the Sith consider it a disturbance however, but it's not a real disturbance for Luke doesn't effect the Will of the Force yet by his actions.
     
  4. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    not the will of the force perhaps, but i believe he effects the force it's self. as you said the force is a balance, and to the sith his very existance creates an imbalance. they would have said the same of yoda had he not been concealed by the mass of life on dagobah. just by living i feel he creates in them a knot that must be dealt with
     
  5. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Maybe my defination of a 'disturbance in the Force' is wrong. But I still think that it's about the Will of the Force. That's where the balance should be. Follow it, don't manipulate it. That is where the imbalance lies. So the Sith create the disturbances. Luke's presence is a threat to the Sith. But I wouldn't call it a disturbance in the Force, cause Luke didn't manipulate the Force. The Sith do. So what is the Sith's defenition of a disturbance in the Force. It's probably, unlikely the same as what the Jedi consider to be a disturbance. They sense that the Will of the Force is troubled. The Force tells them that. The midi-chlorians do. They tell them the Will of the Force. Which is also a good Question. How do the Sith use their midi-chlorians. Cause yeah if they are depended on the Will of the Force, the Sith wouldn't be able to use the Force. It defines your strenght though. It's strange that they still speak to you, even if you manipulate the Force.
     
  6. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    perhaps it is in the way that they see the force, they impose their will on it, "manipulate" it as you said. as the midi-chlorians in a jedi react to calm, perhaps the midi-chlorians in a sith react to passion. it is, after all a symbiotic relationship. if this were the case then a sith and his midi-chlorians would be given the same ability yet in a different manner to their jedi counterparts. otherwise a sith could have no knowledge of the force.
     
  7. Graft

    Graft Love-tiger

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    That maes sense, to me. And about Luke being a "disturbance", maybe it just means he is disturbing to the Sith, and that he is strong of the force. Even before he becomes a "Jedi", he obviously has very powerful potential within him, and so the light and dark sides would be pulling at him, creating the disturbance.

    EDIT: The hell thing. In the Star Wars universe, I don't think there is a hell, as proven by Obi-Wan becoming one with the force. The afterlife is just your spirit fusing with the force energies. I think "Go to Hell!" and "I'll see you in hell!" just make good lines for the characters. Sounds an awful lot better than "I'll see you when our energies come together in the force!"
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2008
  8. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Lol yeah I agree that does sound better. Anyway about the 'disturbance'. The Dark and the Light pulling him. Yeah that's right, but not litteraly I think. Like I said I don't think there is actually a Dark Side and a Light Side. However you made me think. The fact that Luke has such a potential may incluence the Force, that is considered a balance and a peace in the Force. That good could feel like a disturbance to the Sith, however of course not to the Jedi. But again it's not a real disturbance in my dictionary lol
     
  9. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    in this case wouldn't anything that effects the force as it stands be considered a disturbance. the loss of life on alderaan would therefore be considered a disturbance to both jedi and sith, as would a boy with the potential of luke. the jedi were able to sense a disturbance before the rise of palpatine. as stated by mace when he warned the council of the dark side surrounding the chancelor, even though the darkside clouded their vision, just as vader and palpatine saw a disturbance around luke. i don't think this was any clearer than the clouded vision seen by the jedi except that they had an enemy to go along with their suspicions
     
  10. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Yes, that's a good theory you mention. Anything that effects the Force could be considered a disturbance. Whether it's for the Sith or the Jedi, It depends on what actually is happening, I guess. Luke's presence is a disturbance because the Sith know he might be their downfall. Which is in fact true for what we see later in 'Return of the Jedi'. Strange thing is how did Palpatine feel it. Vader could probably sense it because he was very near Luke when the Death Star was attacked. And if Palpatine could sense Luke, why couldn't he sense Yoda or Obi-Wan Kenobi? Can they shield their presence, which is not proven in the movie. However Palpatine could shield his Dark Side very well, though not completely. As you said the Jedi knew the Dark Side surrounded the Chancellor. Though they didn't know if it actually was the Chancellor himself. They had no proof and theri vision was clouded by the Dark Side.
     
  11. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    i believe palpatine fell prey to the very weakness he exploited in the jedi. arrogance. he believed his enemies defeated, therefore he didn't seek them out as he should. add to this that yoda and obi-wan went to the furthest reaches of the galaxy they would not need to be nearly as profficient in masking their presence as the emperor.
    it is only when luke makes an appearance in new hope, that the gravity of the situation becomes apparent. also, it is very likely that vader and palpatine communicated lukes intervention in the aforementioned battle of yavin 4, and his abilities with the force.
     
  12. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I don't see how Palpatine could feel Luke during the battle of Yavin. Vader obviously could. He felt the Force was strong in Luke, though he didn't know that he was his son. Yavin is still in the outer rim, Far away from the centre of the galaxy, where the Emperor probably was during the attack. And when Vader learned of Luke being his son, he refused to share this information to the Emperor, though not for long as the Emperor said he felt a disturbance with Luke. The rebels mostly were on the Outer Rim, so far away from the Emperor, if he mostly stayed on Coruscant, that is. The other question is how did the Emperor learn about Luke. Was it purely by the Force, or were there indeed spies or Probe Droids involved. I don't think so. Probably he did it purely by the Force. He is after all very strong in it. I guess it was indeed by using the Force so heavily during the attack and also Luke learned so much on his own . So maybe that's how the Emperor felt him. By his training afterwards.
     
  13. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    the destruction of the deathstar would have created a disturbance in the force as perceived by palpatine. it would be only natural after vader reported the circumstances, that palpatine would learn of his new enemy through the force. as you said, vader knew luke was his son in empire strikes back, so it is conceivable that palpatine discovered this from the same source. i believe it is entirely possible that the emperor knew of lukes identity before vader.
     
  14. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Indeed the destruction of the Death Star would create a big disturbance in the Force. But unrelated to Luke. It would only be felt by all the people that died on board of that Space station. I don't think this is when the Emperor learns about Luke. The Empire Strikes back takes place three years after A New Hope. Why would he wait so long. Yeah Vader and Palpatine could have learned it from the same source. I'm not thinking what happens in EU, cause there is an explanation I believe how at least Vader learns about Luke. I believe it's in 'Vader's Quest' or 'Splinters of the Mind's Eye'. This source in the movies that is, may not be related to the destruction of the Death Star. Who learned first about Luke is unknown. Though Vader acts surprised when he hears about Luke when the Emperor speaks about him, he did know already. Vader surely knew before the events of 'The Empire Strikes Back'.
     
  15. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    though he would have known that one strong in the force was involved in the destruction of the station, vader must have relayed the information to his master in order to explain his own miraculous survival. also, isn't it likely that the emperor felt the destruction of the death star as surely as obi-wan felt the destruction of alderaan? though i can understand vader being reluctant to tell his master of his discovery of lukes identity, who wouldn't want to take over as the preeminant sith lord?
     
  16. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Well if someone strong in the Force was involved remains to be seen. Yes Vader knew it, but did the Emperor. Vader could still have fed him a story about the sabotage of Han and yes don't forget the target computers those X-Wings and Y-Wings have. So did it really require someone strong in the Force to pull of the trick. No, someone skilled in piloting, lucky and with a target computer could have pulled off the trick too. Anyway the Emperor wouldn't have felt that it was somebody strong in the Force that destroyed the Death Star. Did Vader indeed tell him. He would be reluctant, but then again it would be a good explanation how he did get beaten by a "mere pilot".
     
  17. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    in revenge of the sith we see that palpatine is not a forgiving master. when dooku falls to anakin palpatine is quick to order the death of his apprentice. i do not believe vader would be willing to incur his masters wrath by informing him it was a freak incident which destroyed the new instrument of the empire. vader would have been more than willing to tell of the strange force user who interceeded on behalf of the rebellion. perhaps suggesting it was a fugitive jedi
     
  18. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    That is debatable. See the death of Dooku was planned. It wasn't that Palpatine isn't forgiving. No, it was because Anakin was stronger than Dooku. He would become the new apprentice. Palpatine planned this from the beginning ever since he saw Anakin as a young boy. He had great interest in him. And I know many don't want to believe it. But Palpatine and Vader were friends, George Lucas tried to show that things aren't black and white. Even for Palpatine. He wanted peace, truly. He considered himself to be good. He didn't say "Hey, I'm a baddie!!" No he thought himself to be good and he did developp a friendship with Vader, a harsh one though. Later things turned and a distrust was created. Vader wanted to be the master and Palpatine because of Vader's betrayel wanted a new apprentice. "Always two there are." Remember? Vader would have to make room for Luke. Anyway like I said they were friends. So would Palpatine be forgiving? It's likely...
     
  19. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    would anakin have seen it that way? he was ordered to kill dooku by someone he at that stage trusted. when he later came to know the truth it would have remained with him. in revenge of the sith u can see the pain and torment in anakins eyes on mustafar as he thinks of what he's done. i do not think he believes his master to be forgiving and it is this that would lead him to be honest about a force weilder at yavin 4
    also, we must take into account that the jedi are able to read the surface thoughts of others, as demonstrated in phantom menace when anakin is taking his test. is it not then logical to assume palpatine has this same ability? and if so a half truth has more probability of being overlooked than an outright lie.
    palpatine would be more interested in a rogue jedi than a boy
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2008
  20. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Again that is debatable. Anakin failed to kill Obi-Wan. But his master either didn't care or he forgave him. First one is maybe more likely. Still it is a failure. That means that Palpatine is more tolerant than you might think. And was the destruction of the Death Star purely Vader's fault. Many Tie Fighters protected the Space Station. It all doesn't come down to him. I also look at the first sign of Palpatine's humanity.Unlilke what other's think he placed his hand on Anakin when he lay to rot on Mustafar, because he truly cared for him. It is maybe the only humanity we see from him. So again would Palpatine be forgiving in this matter.... It's not unlikely that's for sure.