How could Sauron have better handled things?

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Luther_the_Great, May 19, 2006.

  1. Luther_the_Great

    Luther_the_Great The Amazing

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0
    You know, if you are a dark lord and your realm is the most powerful on earth, or middle-earth, you should be able to get a hold of a hand full of midgets. Also, when you send a group of trained professional killers after them, then you should definitely get what sent after. BUT NO!!!! Not only do the Nazgul fail to get as much of a glimpse of the ring in the entire novel, they get beaten ravaged in a roaring torrent, shot out of the sky, killed by a crazy woman who actually WANTED to die, and torn up by eagles just before they rush to get the ring that they COULD have gotten a year before. And then they fizzle out of the sky and are destroyed.

    You know, one has to ask. How much were these clowns paid? I don't know, but whatever it was it was too much. Or maybe...they weren't paid enough. Perhaps that was Sauron's greatest folly that he cheated them out of their paychecks and so they didn't work as hard for him. So as a result the ring goes into the fire.

    You know, if Sauron had just emptied all the orcs and balrog and sent them to the shire to roast every little hobbit they could find instead of 9 people that nobody will talk to and who CAN'T EVEN SEE! Then perhaps he would still be the dark lord consuming all the world in darkness. But No! What does he do with that army that is so conviently behind the wall of Gondor? He leaves it where it is until it is too late to do anything productive with it but throw it away into pointlessly into Lorien. Then they go into a forest that has magic trees that hate them, yeah smart one guys.

    What would be really .damning for Sauron is if there was another obvious option he could have used. Oh wait! There was! There is always Saruman, yeah that's right the guy who got beat by a bunch of trees. Here Sauron had a powerful alley, willing or no, that he could easily have daunted into doing whatever he wanted. If Saruman had resisted then he could have just stuck a Nazgul up his... Don't get me started on the Nazgul again. Anyway, here is a army of ten thousand orcs and wild men, Sauron could have sent that into the Shire or at least he could have sent it to cut off the any attempts to enter Rivendell, which Sauron undoubtedly knew the hobbits had to pass through in order to get anywhere in Eriador.

    But I'm not finished, oh no (even though you might wish I was). Sauron had in his hands a virtual slave to the ring and what does he do with it? He just lets it go where ever it wants. That's right, I'm talking about gollum. How on earth is gollum supposed to get the ring if he has to cross half the world to get to it. That miserable gangrelly creature should have been stuffed in a saddle bag and given a lift to the shire by the Nazgul. But no, I doubt they would have even known what to do with the wretched thing once they got him there. How pathetic.

    Maybe the smarter thing for Sauron to do would have been to seek counseling and maybe get a hobby or even a girl friend. It would have kept him from doing things like making rings of power that dominate the world.

    Well there you have it. A true LOTR rampage. Something that seemed to be lacking in the LOTR section.
     
  2. Dwimmerlaik

    Dwimmerlaik Captain of Despair

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    5,752
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Angmar (aka. GA)
    Ratings:
    +31 / 0 / -0

    well the Nazgul did not get torn up by the eagles, there fell beasts did. And Tolkien made it that way, so that is how it is.
     
  3. Schmavid

    Schmavid A simple wanderer.

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Great Southern Land.
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0
    Quite possibly because he had already tried that during the War of the Ring. Sauron was also afraid of Aragorn, he is a descendant of Numenor, the race which helped to bring about the downfall of Sauron the first time. Sauron has been battling the people of Middle-Earth for a long time, since way back in the first age in which he was second in command to Morgoth.

    He knew that subtle warfare could work, he brought about the downfall of Numenor in a subtle way, so it seems pretty obvious that he wanted to try this style of warfare again, a good commander throws away what hasn't worked for them and continues to use what has worked.
     
  4. McTroubles

    McTroubles New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    At the end of the day the only way Sauron could die was if the ring fell into the Crack of Doom right. So all he had to do was keep a decent bodyguard around the volcano and he's smiling all the way to world domination. Cause Aragorn didnt have to many men left at the Black Gate did he. I'm sure Sauron could have left a few hundred orcs behind. If he never found the ring at least he would have destroyed the men of the west, the major plan. Its better than being dead.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    6,374
    Likes Received:
    230
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +230 / 0 / -0
    That has a major flaw...it assumes Sauron has brains. And sanity :D.

    Slightly more seriously, isn't there this whole thing about the villain always being overwhelmingly arrogant? That's pretty much it...plus Sauron had to slip up or we'd be reading a nice story about hobbits under slave labour :eek:
     
  6. Boadicea

    Boadicea Warrior Queen

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    1,436
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Colorado
    Ratings:
    +62 / 0 / -0
    It's threads like these and links like this that totally spoil LOTR for me. Really funny though, hehe. Watch it.

     
  7. McTroubles

    McTroubles New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    You're absolutely right there. He would'nt be a true 'bad guy' unless he started gloating at the end. Arrogance hey, you gotta love it.
     
  8. Window Bar

    Window Bar "We Read for Light"

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2009
    Messages:
    184
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Now if Sauron had offered universal healthcare and pensions; had he found some kind of minority to blame everything on; and had he managed to set up the FOX News Channel*--we'd have a winner!
     
  9. telcontar_63

    telcontar_63 Soldier of Gondor

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2004
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Well for starters, that would have made the worst book ever, and neither Tolkien or Peter Jackson would have made any money...
    Secondly, Sauron was living in fear from the moment he found out that the ring had been found. It was this fear that allowed the good guys (Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond, etc.) to make any sort of plan. It was also his fear that led him to make huge mistakes like not even remotely considering that the enemy would try to destroy the ring and forsake the possibility of weilding it against him. His fear was what allowed Aragorn and Gandalf to play him like fiddle!
    The bottom line is that he was too scared and paranoid to think straight.

    PS. Nazgul are hardcore. But they found themselves fighting enemies that they had never seen or expected to see before. Freaking hobbits and women and other people that didn't cower in their wake. It's all psychological I think.
     
  10. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -1
    First of all I think you should calm down.I'm talking to Luther.You should calm down.Second,I was gonna ask if you've read the books first and then watched the movie but that's a bit pointless now.Anyway,here's what I have to say:

    Sauron was a mastermind.He had survived for thousands of years and handled things far better than his former master Morgoth.
    You see,Morgoth,just like you,would go on a rampage and just attack.He would send orcs,Balgros,dragons,men and whatever he could find.He rarely planned things carefully and always ended up getting beaten.

    Sauron was much smarter and much more patient,he was much more subtle and apart from military power,he used flattery,cunning skills and diplomacy a lot of times all that combined with espionage and strategy.Saruman was not Sauron's puppy.Saruman betrayed everyone.At first his own class,the elves and men and all the good guys and then Sauron too.He worked for himself and he wanted to find and keep the One Ring for himself.
    You forget that Sauron had one a lot of times and also lost a lot of times but always came back.He waited patiently to gather armies and strike again,it's time becoming stronger and the men and elves weaker.Why Sauron lost?Well because the other guys were lucky.
    Sauron had been looking for the One Ring for years,he couldn't have let it stay lost by arousing the entire Middle-Earth by sending every Orc and Troll and whatever else he had attacking.
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -1
    Ok first of all the Ents were not "a bunch of trees".They had incredible stamina and strength.Did you read that part in the book that says it takes a lot of hits with an axe to kill an Ent?Meaning A LOT of hits and most Orcs or goblins wouldn't even hit an Ent more than twice.Ents grab huge rocks and throw them,Ents walk and the earth shakes.And when the Ents are angry....well you can see in the movie what they can do.And again,Saruman had his own agenda.Do you think that by just sending an army to Shire or wherever,they would gain the One Ring?
    Saruman or Sauron's target was not just the domination of Middle-Earth,it was finding the One Ring.And through the One Ring to rule,because it gave incredible power.And just sending armies like that before everything was planned,would be stupid.Sauron's armies were gathering.He couldn't have sent 10,000 or 20,000 Orcs outside of Mordor,Gondor's men would have had them chopped up.Or if not them,then the Elves in Lothlorien.Sending his forces like that would cause a war of attrition.He was gathering his armies and he was waiting for the right time to strike.Plus,like others said above he never expected that the good guys would actually try to destroy the Master Ring.He thought that everybody would try to use it for his own purpose and in the end Mordor was considered pretty much a place where someone couldn't just enter easily.
     
  12. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Messages:
    35,085
    Likes Received:
    2,611
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Belgium
    Ratings:
    +3,116 / 3 / -0
    If Sauron was defeated most of all because he was so afraid, then imo he's no great villain at all. Now I'm talking of the movies, but of strategy? You don't see much brains there either in the movies... Of courage? Certainly not, even others confirmed that in his defense. So yeah overall it just seems that the story just didn't have a great villain. Maybe he was a better one before he got defeated in the beginning of the first film. Even though I have read the whole story, I can't remember anything else concerning Sauron, cause I only read it once. And yeah I don't remember much more details that prove otherwise of what I just said. The only thing I can't say is that I have read the stories such as the Hobbit which take place before the LOTR, so is there any information in that, that could convince me (or at least in an attempt) that he is a great villain?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
  13. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    7,135
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +639 / 3 / -1
    There was a lot more battleplanning and such in the main books - the siege of the White City was far more involved and drawn out than the films portrayed it as (heck the orc camp was a mimic of the WW1 trenches with what they built outside the sieged city). Heck most of the city was being overtaken by his basic battleplan - his two main faults being Aragon and Gandalf the White (Sauron already had Sarumon under his spell so was not expecting the White Wizard to be riding against him as such) who both managed to turn the main tide of the battle through their actions (esp the reinforcements brought by Aragon who were, originally, real men not the undead army).


    I think Saurons main failing was that he failed to plan for the forces of good intending to destroy the ring. Even without the influence of his mind, the ring in itself brought power and I suspect he hoped that his enemies would want to covert the ring not destroy it -- remember his lesser rings had one and all either dominated their respective bearers or proven so powerful that they'd not abandoned them - let alone sought to destroy them.
    As such his guard over his lands maybe wasn't as major as he could have made it. Furthermore I suspect that with Gandalf and Aragon attacking at a single spot with the meger forces left to them; that he assumed the ring (if destruction of it at that stage was on the table) was with that last-ditch fighting effort - and not being snuck in through other means.


    He also put a lot of faith in his rear guard being protected by Shelob - a very ancient evil spider who was undefeated - as such a perfect guard that he did not expect to die to a small group of scouts.


    In short he was no fool, but he did, in the end, lose
     
  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -1
    What OR said is pretty accurate,pretty good and well said.Before the siege of Minas Tirith,Sauron had already managed to put fear and dispair into the hearts of the men of Gondor.First of all,use of the Palantiri gave him something like "propaganda" chance to show off his armies to the enemy so they could understand that they were facing insurmountable odds.Second,before his sent his armies to besiege the city he had already started "sending" dark clouds over the city,coming from the Mount of Doom.This darkness had two effects:
    Mainly to depress the people of Minas Tirith and it did make them feel depressed,it was a kind of psychological warfare because a darkness covered the sky for days and second I guess that would make the Orcs and goblins fight more "easily" as the Mordor Orcs were not used to fight in the bright sun as opposed to the Uruk-Hai of Saruman's army.

    In the Silmarillion there are detailed accounts of Sauron's wars and battles and his plans and all that and especially in the Forgotten Tales.If you read those you will understand that Sauron was indeed a mastermind and a big strategist(as opposed to Morgoth who was just "Rrrroaaaarghhh kill everything").Especially the achievement of submitting himself willingly as a prisoner to the Numenorians when they were at the height of their power and then patiently working his way up from an important prisoner in Numenor to an advisor of the king and achieving the complete fall(morally and physically)of Numenor...that was like...a feat.He took a very long time to recover from that loss of his human form but he wiped out a major opponent through cunningness.
    Not to mention dozens of other battles and machinations through the First and Second Age.

    No,don't think that Sauron was not a worthy villain,in fact he is one of the biggest and smartest villains in Fantasy literature,you just have to dig a bit more into the Silmarillion and the Forgotten Tales if LOTR isn't enough proof for you.
     
  15. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Messages:
    35,085
    Likes Received:
    2,611
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Belgium
    Ratings:
    +3,116 / 3 / -0
    yeah, it seems he's not as bad as I presumed, but most proof comes from the stories that take place before LOTR, so I think they could have build him up better, so that he would have been a better villain in that.
     
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -1
    No he's a pretty high-class bad guy in LOTR too and that's evident.You can clearly see it.If you are too bored to read the Silmarillion or The Forgotten Tales you could also check some stuff about Sauron on wikipedia or something.I think they had a lot of details about him there.Let me check some stuff to c/p for you and others in here:

    About 500 years into the Second Age, Sauron reappeared. "Bereft of his lord...[he] fell into the folly of imitating him."[19] "Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganizing and rehabilitation of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods,' he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power," eventually rising to become "master and god of Men."[17]

    As for Sauron's "fair motives", Tolkien emphasized that at this time he "was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all 'reformers' who want to hurry up with 'reconstruction' and 'reorganization' are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up".[24]

    "[T]hough the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself. ... [H]is capability of corrupting other minds, and even engaging their service, was a residue from the fact that his original desire for 'order' had really envisaged the good estate (especially physical well-being) of his 'subjects'."


    About the construction of the Rings of Power and the wars that followed,in short:

    With Sauron's assistance, the Elven-smiths forged the Rings of Power, which conferred great power upon their bearers. He then secretly forged the One Ring in the volcanic Mount Doom in Mordor. This "One Ring to rule them all" had the power to dominate the other Rings and enslave their wearers to Sauron's will. The Rings of Power were extremely potent, however; to create an instrument that could dominate even them, Sauron was forced to transfer a great part of his native power into it. Yet "while he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced".

    [.......................]

    Sauron besieged Imladris, battled Moria and Lórien, and pushed further into Gil-galad's realm. The Elves fought back, however, and with the aid of a powerful army from Númenor, they destroyed Sauron's army and drove the remnant back to Mordor. The Númenóreans were descended from the Three Houses of the Edain who helped the Elves in their war against Morgoth. They lived on the island of Númenor in the seas between Middle-earth and Valinor, a reward for their service from the Valar, and theirs was the most powerful kingdom of Men at this time.

    [.....................]


    Toward the end of the Second Age, Ar-Pharazôn, the last and most powerful of the Númenórean kings, came to Middle-earth with a large army. Sauron, realizing he could not defeat the Númenóreans with military strength, surrendered. Clad in a beautiful incarnation, he came to Ar-Pharazôn's camp to swear allegiance to the king, and allowed himself to be taken as a prisoner to Númenor.

    This was part of his plan to corrupt Númenórean civilization from inside. "Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Númenor."[30] When Ar-Pharazôn in his arrogance took Sauron hostage, he failed to realise with whom he was dealing: Sauron "was of course a 'divine' person ... and thus far too powerful to be controlled in this way. He steadily got Arpharazôn's [sic] mind under his own control, and in the event corrupted many of the Númenóreans."[5]


    [...................]

    In the end, Sauron prevailed upon Ar-Pharazôn, fearful of his approaching death, to sail with a great armada upon Aman in order to seize immortality by force from the Valar.[5] Sauron expected the Valar to respond by destroying Ar-Pharazôn and his naval might, thus removing Sauron's greatest obstacle to domination of Middle-earth. But the Valar had no direct dominion over the Children of Eru, so in the face of this challenge they laid down their guardianship of the world and appealed to Eru for a solution.[32]

    Eru's divine intervention did indeed destroy the king and his armada; but Númenor itself was swallowed by the sea, and the Blessed Realm was removed from the physical world. Sauron had not foreseen this, and his body was destroyed in the destruction. Having expended much energy in the corruption of Númenor, he was diminished,[33] and lost forever the ability to take a fair form. Yet his spirit rose out of the abyss, and he was able to carry with him the one thing that mattered most. Wrote Tolkien, "I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended."[33]
     
  17. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    7,135
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +639 / 3 / -1
    I think that is a valid point - in LOTR Sauron is little more than a ghost (the big burning eye is something made for the films alone to give him a physical appearance for the screen alone - in the tales he was more a wraith type creature- lacking form). So he's a difficult evil since he lacks a face or presence in the actual world and his actions are more played out through his minions and servants.
    He's more the great threat of evil than the actual physical manifestation of evil which is a big difference for most of Hollywood filming and industry, who prefer a more physical and simple evil.
     
  18. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Messages:
    35,085
    Likes Received:
    2,611
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Belgium
    Ratings:
    +3,116 / 3 / -0
    Even that is not necessary. Voldermort for example was not seen in lots of the movies or he appeared in some other form in the first films until the ending of the fourth. But what made his character a good villain, is being they showed how feared he was. Imo the build up was good, while it's ironic that I do not prefer him in his physical form. It kinda ruins his reputation, which Sauron certainly lacks in LOTR itself.
     
  19. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -1
    Are you talking about LOTR in the movies in your last post or the book?Because I think they did all they could in the movies to show the audience that he is a big threat to Middle-Earth and in the books he is far more easy to understand as a big villain and strategic mind.

    What I really really hate when it comes to Sauron in the movies is the stupid idea of having an eye in a physical form on top of Barad-dur looking like a searchlight here and there inside Mordor.That was stupid.They didn't have to do that at all.The use of the Eye of Sauron when Frodo puts the One Ring on was very good,but that thing on top of the tower looking here and there was just stupid.
    And Sauron had begun to take physical form he was just not completely recovered or something.If I remember correctly,Gollum sees him when he was in Barad-dur as a prisoner and says he saw the hand with 4 fingers(Sauron had lost one finger when Isildur cut the One Ring off him)
     
  20. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Messages:
    35,085
    Likes Received:
    2,611
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Belgium
    Ratings:
    +3,116 / 3 / -0
    Yeah he does have a more typical physical hollywood form in the books lol. Jackson just didn't decide to use it. (which is a shame cause I do think his physical form looked cool... It reminded me of a medieval Darth Vader lol) It's also a shame that he got defeated so easily when the movie opens and personally if I remember correctly, this wasn't much different in the book. Although they did shorten it, but still. Anyway I think there isn't much point in discussing it. I'm glad you like him as a villain, personally I won't call him a weak villain, or stupid or anything. It's just that I've seen or read, for that matter about better ones.

    Cheers!