homosexuality in textbooks (studying literature)

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by anonymous, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    I'm not afraid of homosexuality, and I'm not afraid of religion. There is a place for both in the world. Censorship, on the other hand, worries me... or, rather, it's the push to censor others that worries me. Until people can grow up and... GASP... cope with the fact that other people are different (and allowed to be), then the push for censorship will continue. I take a dim view of anyone who tries to have sexual orientation, faith, or any other thing like that banned. I have to question their motives for doing so.
     
  2. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I seem to recall reading once that homosexuality was encouraged in ancient armies of Greece to promote increased loyalty and bonding within the ranks.

    Also I am another who never gets the whole "its not natural" argument for homosexuality. The more you study and look at the natural world the more you see that homosexuality is all over the place. In fact it would be true to say that many species display a significant amount of bisexuality.

    Sex in itself is also something that isn't just about procreation, some people have got a very fixated view that the world is about genetic passing on and that sex is only about producing babies. However take a look at almost any social group of mammals (and others) and you can see that sex is not just about breeding nor is it just about "pack dominance". It varies from species to species and from group to group within a species and is there as a core social element outside of reproduction.
     
  3. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    It depends on how it is taught though, teaching kids about homosexuality won't make them gay but teaching them about religion could convert them if the lessons have any kind of bias. It is more risky and difficult to pull off religious education properly because of this, I think that it should be a thing that people can seek if they want to but it shouldn't be required to know every deviation that man has come up with for being the correct path to enlightenment.

    Sure it might help with understanding people more but that may or may not be useful to some people anyway. I don't think homosexuality should be a required thing that is taught either, but neither of them should be censured if they are relevant.
     
  4. Stormborn

    Stormborn Well-Known Member

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    Sparrow, I just wanna say thank you for post #18. Now I don't have to put my thoughts into words.
     
  5. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    I do have my moments... and you're welcome. :)
     
  6. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    at first, we are getting really off topic here, not because I am afraid (lol) of this discussion, but simply because we are.

    to answer some of you arguments.

    Yes we are awere of out existance, but still we are driven by instincts and hormones - and people nowadays write everything off to gene - genes that limit population by having a homosexual gene, (insert evidence here).

    1.st. As I said; that if we look at animal kingdom every individual; in almost every species when and if able will choose opposite sex partner to reproduce with.

    Yes sex is much more about reproduction, or so we think..yes our morale norms are different for those of animals, we do not kill the weak, or eat each other children, but I do not see that as a basis as a proof for homosexuality being natural.

    Animals have period of mating (most of them) in these period they are filled with hormones that will make them have sex with everything (see bunnies humping teddy bears) so when no opposite sex members are available what choise are they left with - to have sex with same sex individuals - thus there is no proof of homosexuality being used to maintain population.

    Both rabbits and camels are overpopulating Australia, and the amount of homosexuals is low.
    (Not sure what species to look at)
    Homosexuality in primates are easy mistook by having a bisexual relationships, and as I have pointed out in previous discussions animals TEND to have bi-sexual relations ships;

    The only true homosexuals are lizards (on species - editing; adding name etc) but because they used to kill males after sex, and there are no males left, so being lesser organisms they developed skill to simulate sex.

    The main argument I want to make is :
    we dont consider monarchy the natural form of leadership, just because it`s overspread in nature - thus the fact we should not consider homosexuality; All I wanted to say is that we should not use unconfirmed argument in discussion. (about homosexuality being natural)...

    And sparrow you should read about gene, the more the better, more diversity the better. At the moment I would not like to continue to discuss this, just because I need to learn a bit more information to base a more legitimate arguments ; and reading your post I think I am not the only one.

    (About the Platapyss eggs - it dosent different much of the baby, truth to be told - and at first how we define natural? -I
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  7. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    I agree with your thoughts here. I think if anything, there is no harm in teaching children about different forms of sexuality and religious belief, as such knowledge can be valuable when it comes to said children being able to deal with different people from different walks of life into their adulthood. Of course, any bias in the teaching of these things should be avoided at all costs, which is why I am an advocate of religious education not being skewed to just one main faith like Christianity, and sex education not being skewed to just heterosexuality. The more that they can learn about in these fields the better.

    Sorry I got off topic there, anon. :D
     
  8. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I often put down bunnies humping teddybears as being bunnies with nothing else left to hump. However in a natural population you'd have male and female bunnies so in theory the males should be able to hump on the females only and yet some won't by choice. There's a pair of gay penguins in one of the larger zoos (I forget which one) which would choose each other when they were within the main flock. The only time they would choose a female were when they were removed and isolated with a female for breeding purposes (the zoo might also have encouraged the breeding as much as they could to help promote genetic viability within their own flock)

    This isn't really a good example (and I'm not quite sure what you're trying to show) since both species are introduced species into Australia and as such have a lack of natural predators in the ecosystem. As such they are able to reproduce and increase in number far beyond what they normally can because there is no "killer" species (or species in sufficient number) which hunts them to keep them in check. It's a similar situation to what we have in the UK with deer populations which we have to cull otherwise they simply increase in number until such a point that they've eaten all their food (and other creatures food) (we lack wolves/bears/lynx - basically we killed off all our larger predators).

    Maybe we then need to consider changing the question and instead asking not if Homosexuality is natural but if the concept of heterosexuality within creatures of higher brain function (as much as we determine such things) is "normal" or "natural". Maybe bisexuality is the norm and the concept of a creature with a pure heteral or homo sexual instinct is the lesser element?


    Far as I know genetics is basically a baby science at present; its so new that whilst we have a lot of theories we don't actually know nearly half as much as we like to think we do. For example I recall hearing/reading that the concept that you have a gene for this and a gene for that (eg the "selfish gene" or the "homosexual gene") is actually utterly wrong and that how you are comprised isn't just based upon individual genes, but also strings of them connected together which cause changes.
     
  9. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    As I said before, not by choice - but by risk of having a fight - which they cannot win, or by the fight being too risky for the prize - sex with the opposite sex partners, and if we look closely you would see that most so called homosexualistic animals are actually bisexual; choosing opposite sex partners over same sex one - when able.

    If we make comparisament with animal kingdom - it would rude to exclude overpopulated areas - ignoring the fact how they become overpopulated, because as you mentioned your self in regular enviroment there would be plenty of natural limitation factor; - so by showing the overpopulation I wanted to show a sample that disables the "count" factor.

    About zoo- you really cant call it a natural environment; and yes penguins have different sense of reproduction then other, they only change mates when the current one dies (in normal environment penguin even have deadly fight over female partners)

    and as I said, I have nothing against the bisexuals or homosexuals, but if we have a serious debates - it would be nice if avoided facts or hypothesis that are not yet accepted.

    Because you cannot prove that moon is orbiting around earth by just using mathematics. ; So there fore the current researches show that " animals when able will choose opposite sex partners over same sex partners (mostly males have these sort of competitions, making prettier nest, fights, bringing fishes etc etc) therefore making homosexuality unnatural

    Yes genetics are far form completion, but gene dont go for a single feature, there are no such thing as only brown eye gene or only dark hair gene. they tend to dominant ones, but research has shown that epi-genetics is far more important than previously thought; epi-genetism is sort of "genes" reactions to out statuses; hormones etc. So in theory it can change some genes - creating a gene that increase female hormones (example estrogen) thus making a man more "femalish ( I hope I am not offending anyone) - in time probably making him homosexual, but 99% of epigenetisms is fault of some sort of trauma or pollution - thus not sure if we could call it natural.

    So all I wanted to say was - the theory of homosexuality being natural is not currently accepted; so saying that " IT is natural" is simply wrong in scientific matter, because everybody of us can make a theory- but that won`t make it true...
     
  10. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    Homosexuality is completely natural. There are many animals that practice homosexuality and bisexuality. My favourite bisexual matriarchal society of animals are the Pan paniscus, otherwise known as Bonobo chimpanzees. They greet each other, no matter what gender, with oral sex ('ello mates), and settle disputes by... sex.

    Sparrow is right. We have imaginations. And somewhere, someone imagined that homosexuality wasn't "right". I'd love to know exactly when, where, why, what, who started that brilliantly stupid idea. Saying that homosexuality isn't natural is just as daft as saying that people that aren't white aren't as intelligent as people who are white. It's just as daft as saying that monogamy is natural, because monogamy sure as hell is not natural. In the least bit. Think about it. One person. A woman is supposed to reproduce with ONE person, creating a very non-diverse genetic pool for the short amount of time that her eggs are available, TYPICALLY, only producing one offspring at a time. I mean, honestly, if we are going the reproduction route here, a woman should have several different fathers for her children (my best friend's mom did it right by having 4 kids and 4 different fathers) and men should be inseminating many different women.

    Female humans don't even experience oestrus! Humans just get horny and we do all sorts of odd things like have sex for reasons other than reproduction. We do it for FUN.

    In the end, when you look at it, there's not much that people do naturally. I mean, we are the only ones to have expansive imaginations, which, judging by comparison, is seemingly unnatural. Being human isn't very natural, now is it ;)

    I had a friend in the fourth grade, who was a male and told me he liked boys. Everyone knew it, even though he had a girlfriend. Hell, his girlfriend knew it. Most of us thought it was cool or didn't really care. It was just him. Ooh, Justin likes boys. Big deal.

    Come on.. there's fish out there that don't even have a sex until it's time to mate and then they become male or female, depending. There are reptiles with two-pronged penises. There's such a vast and wonderful world out there in the animal kingdom. It's all natural by proxy that it even exists. It's not man-made. Sexuality in all forms is natural because it's not man-made. It's part of us, whether is homo, bi, etc sexuality. Hell, look at ancient Greece if you want a good look at homosexuality. Men were alright to sleep with other men and they didn't really give a crap about women. Women were just there to pass along the bloodline. It's not like one day someone woke up and said "Hey, I'm a girl, I fancy girls, that'd be cool because I want to be different." That's not how that works, it's not like picking out a shirt.

    We aren't going to understand sexuality anymore than we are going to understand why the human mind is so vast, so beautiful, yet cannot except tiny little ideas that are slightly different than the "norm".

    If the world just worried more about finance and world peace than who's boinking who... we'd be in a better place. All of us.

    That being said, no, nothing containing homosexuality should be banned.
     
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  11. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    As I said before - basing an argument on unproven facts is simply incorrect.

    I am first to stand about homosexuals being equal, with same right, because they are human first and everything else second.

    But yes MOST animals is bisexuals- and there is really no way to proof that they are homosexuals, they do not talk, do not show any signs. But the research shows that when able they will choose (in this case male) female partners.

    About humans - we have huge illusion of "imagination" of our mind, but when it comes down to instincts there is nothing purer than that, and all in all we are hormone and chemistry driven vehicles.

    And this is not a topic about homosexuality being natural; the current accepted these says it`s not, neither your or me (rhetorical speech) can`t prove it otherwise, and until now I have no information on research that would show other wise...

    So I therefore believe that this discussion in its current state is unsolvable - no need to continue discussing until new researches or evidence is taken or places.

    But the fact at this moment is that - it is no natural, and all I tried to do was to point out that it is wrong to base your opinion on "so called fact" - "(homosexuality is natural) while it is nor proven, that leads to false conclusions and overall bad discussion.

    and now please
     
  12. Druid of Lûhn

    Druid of Lûhn The Little Lamb.

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    Will not help their [homophobic] cause.
     
  13. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    Homosexuality being unnatural is not a fact, I'm sorry. It's just not. You can't prove that it's unnatural anymore than you can prove that it is natural, though there is plenty of sound evidence to prove that it is.
     
  14. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    The current LGBT research also gives the interesting idea that you arent straight, bi or gay. It's more like a scale. = straight........................................homo. And people can fall anywhere on that scale, just like the animals I guess.

    One of my fav comic artist Humon made a lot of drawings on animans in the animal kingdom that doesnt follow human kinds norms. It's pretty fun to read. Same as Liv said in a previous post..

    ex:
    [​IMG]
     
  15. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    I would really like to get back on topic ;) Because that discussion is kind of pointLESSSSSS.
    (and I would not like to have a sort of famous discussion threads like Foin has,haha LOLz)

    So as of 1.st semptember 2014 all homosexual material, or the material that relate to homosexual content will be removed form school course textbooks.

    I am amazed by how Communistic still my government is, but needless to say - as a +/- religion country, homosexuals are opressed in mot manors; they even forbid the "pride" for going trough Center of Riga..they considered even to forbidding it, but the pride organisators promised a lawsuit in EU court, so they allowed, but only in "Goverment" approved route.

    And, I guess next they are going to do...is forbid homosexual writers as well....
     
  16. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    Well I feel sorry for the LGBT community that lives in Latvia right now, they must feel very offended and I hope they gather up along with the rest of the people there that realises how stupid and ignorant this is, and protest.
     
  17. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    it is a violation and discrimination towards a group of people.
     
  18. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    This being Latvia, I will not be surprised that they will not ban them.

    But truth to be told, their route went across School and kindergarten... so I think it`s kind of normal they they forbid the route they wanted. (the school which I attended), but I think that still they should have allowed they to create a different route, not just make one for them self.

    And the pride one before that -(in the one they allowed to form the organisators themself) went to provocative places ; Like Momument of Freedom; and monument of Victory etc...so it was sort needless provocation.

    And based on that they decided to forbid the pride.
     
  19. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    They chose public places. Remind me what is wrong by going past these monuments?
     
  20. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    Well, while they're at it, why not start removing jewish texts in the books as well.. <.< (sarcasm so no one misunderstands this comment)

    And why is it provocation btw? to walk past those?