Help to identify a sword style

Discussion in 'General Weapons & Armour' started by Rua Rí, Jul 7, 2010.

  1. Rua Rí

    Rua Rí New Member

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    to start I love swords.

    No idea why I have this but they have always fascinated me and there is something quite beautiful about them.

    I collected a few replicas, two replica samurai swords (forgive me if I do not use correct terminology), a replica Kriss, a replica templar dagger and finally a sword I cannot name.

    It is the last one which I am curious about, I bought it in a flea market in Belguim last year and was wondering if I post a pic could some of the more experienced members give me an idea of the style or origins of it?
     
  2. Greybeard

    Greybeard Geezer

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    We could take a swing at it, but I make no promises.
     
  3. Rua Rí

    Rua Rí New Member

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    I think they are all attached but I am not sure how to do it on this forum.

    The first is the Kriss, no idea how genuine it is, it was a present from a long time ago. I don't particularly like the tacky looking jewels just above the hilt but the blade and hilt themselves are quite nice.

    The other is from the flea market in Belguim. It has a slightly curved blade and there appears to be a dragon engraved on the scabbard and hilt making me think it might be Asian in origin?
     

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  4. Rua Rí

    Rua Rí New Member

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    And I almost forgot, thanks Greybeard, any help in identifying its origins/style are appreciated. I would like to know more about it but since the guy who sold it hadn't a clue I was struggling to find a way to research until I found this place
     
  5. Greybeard

    Greybeard Geezer

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    I'm much better with European swords, but here goes:

    The second one looks like it's supposed to be a wakizashi, but I'm certain it isn't authentic.

    The first isn't a kris, but another of the bewildering variety of knives from that part of the world. No idea if it's authentic or not.

    TryNetsword. They're knowledgable and pretty laid back. Odds are they'll do better than I did.
     
  6. AmrasTheArcher

    AmrasTheArcher Woodsman and archer

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    Hey, had a look to see if I could add anything but am agreeing with Greybeard, not sure about the first one but it doesn't look historical and again I'd say the other is a wakizashi but not of any quality, the blade's a bit shoddy. Again my expertise is European so may be wrong.
     
  7. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    I don't know the name of that quasi-kris 09, I can't tell if the blade is pattern welded or just etched to look like it is.

    The others - Nice wood carving on the scabbard but I think what you have there is a cheap knockoff made to look like a Japanese katana or wakizashi. It was in a flea market so it's unlikely to be anything resembling authentic.
    The blade looks to be a flat piece of (probably low grade) steel with not much angle ground in to give a sharp looking blade edge. Notice how the handle is far wider than the width of the blade. Properly made japanese blades have a handle not much wider than the blade itself, as the tang extends from the blade into the handle at the same width.

    But the wood carving makes a very nice display piece to put on your wall, I have non-functional display swords because I thought they looked nice when I bought them :)
     
  8. trazzberry1

    trazzberry1 New Member

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    the first one is completely decorative, i think. i'm reasonably sure it's not based off any historic weapon, although it almost looks like a weirdly shaped kukri. the second one looks like a cheap tanto. tantos differ from wakizashis and katanas because they occasionally were made with wide handles to allow for quicker drawing. Also the tip of the blade appears to be pointed in tanto style, a little more conducive to outright thrusting than a katana or wakizashi would be. i agree with mub that the blade looks like cheap steel, probably machined. the wood work is a nice aesthetic, but you're not dealing with any master-crafted weapons there. nice decoration though :D
     
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    looking at them, I'd say they're not made by a master smith. They strike me as being either made by a craft school student - or as tourist curiosa.

    The dagger holds the middle between a kurki and a kris. The motives on the scabbard are buddhistic and indicate a Chinese or South-East Asian background. Although it's made to look like a sacrificial blade, it's not anything I recognise. The etched patterns are interesting, this is traditional for a kris - although it's usually much more delicate in that case.

    The sword indeed seems to represent a wakizashi, but it seems to me that the creator hasn't ever laid eyes on a real one. The tsuba (guard plate at the bottom of the blade) is wooden and continues on the scabbard.

    For both the sword and dagger goes that the wood work is artificially aged.
     
  10. trazzberry1

    trazzberry1 New Member

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    the second one is not a wakizashi because they are by definition made of layered tamahagane steel, and that weaponis definitely not. also the point is not angular enough to be a wakizashi because they have slashing tips and that is a stabbing tip. it's a tanto.
     
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Oh, I don't agree.

    The same rules apply to a wakizashi as to a tanto. Same steel, same process. Just the length makes it a katana, a wakizashi, a tanto or anything in between. The handle is singe-handed. The length of the blade is more then twice that of handle. That's a wakizashi-style sword.

    Personally, I wouldn't call it a wakizashi as such, since it's sort of set in Japanese tradition. And this sword breaks with that tradition on several points. But the visual blueprint is a wakizashi.
     
  12. trazzberry1

    trazzberry1 New Member

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    actually, wakizashi, katana, and dai katana are all similarly shaped, and those are usually identified by length, but tantos and ninjatos were peasant weapons and are shaped differently. they both have more rounded points that are made for stabbing as opposed to the angular, slashing point of the samurai weaponry.
     
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Personally, I would plead against the idea of a ninjato since the right to carry a sword was reserved to the Samurai class. Basically, the entire idea of ninjitsu is the art of defense without traditional weapons. Inevertably, anything that's not within the daisho range could be called a ninjato, since every interpretation is as valid as the next.

    The best translation for tanto is, simply, dagger. I'm not sure what the rules in feudal Japan were, but let's say the upper limit of a dagger blade is roughly 20cm. Now, it's hard to estimate size on this one, but assuming these are 20 cm tiles, we're looking at about 35 cm of blade. Unless you're Rambo, that's not a dagger...
     
  14. trazzberry1

    trazzberry1 New Member

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    i would think the best way to classify the weapon is outside the traditional japanese system because it's not a traditional japanese weapon. if you look closely at the blade in the picture, it appears to be machine beaten and not made of good quality sword steel. i would say the wood working on the handle and sheath are also machine cut, and the blade is a rough approximation of a samurai weapon designed purely for looks.
     
  15. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    I have not been to this forum for a while but I have seen a sword similar to the first pic. The book of the sword by Richard Burton has some unusual sword types in it. The first pic looks like some African executioner swords.
     
  16. Greybeard

    Greybeard Geezer

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    I'll have to find my copy. There are certainly some very funky swords in that. Still, the decoration on the sheath and the hilt look Asian to me, not African. However, as I posted before, I'm no expert, and what limited expertise I do have is limited to European swords.
     
  17. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    I think you are right on the decoration. I was only going by the blade style. To all interested parties its good to be back.
     
  18. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    So ok I looked in Book of the Sword and several other weapons books I have and the closest types I can find are the egyptian kopis and some african blade styles:confused: