Hate America

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by kartaron, Apr 22, 2004.

  1. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    What about cuba? Is that a failed communistic Island, that happens to drift just outside Florida, or are all Americans happy enough to see ccommunism actually work just in sight? And how about the attitude of america towards Cuba, is that still justifyable, or is it just the itch on their back, they just can't get rid of?

    Cuba happened to find steady flows of income whenever they needed it. Russia supported them until the '90's and Now they have good tourism from europe and the states (even though its illegal) It looks like Castro might be doing some drug running as well.
     
  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Hmmm... I could have to do with jaleosy of the man on top, but there has to be at least on "top" and they will be watched more eagerly than any other nation. It's what you do with all the power that decides their reputation, anf I have the feeling the US has a tendancy to abuse it's power. And let's be honest, who can do anything anything about American policy? Boycotting the US is economical cuicide, for instance. The only two organisations that can adjust US policy are the UN and the European Union, and both have proven not to have that much grip on them. The only time the US had to bow before the EU, was in the steelwar, Bush started to protect their own steel industry and EU made a fist. Later Bush blamed the EU of a tradewar, which to my taste he started. Who is going to force America to sign the Kyoto convention? And more important, why don't they? Why don't they sign the nuclear weopon treaty (and I can't say enough that none other than the US forces other nations to sign it under threat of great force). Why did they attack Iraq, without UN support or the completion of the rapport on the weapons of mass-distrucion? Why is Cuba still under embargo? And who is going to something about all this? The truth is that no one can, and that is frustrating at the very least.
     
  3. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    ... And about Cuba and American power, what the *(*#%(& is happening at guantanamo bay? That is like the most ugly, the Americans came up with in the last 25 years! I mean, start worrying about human rights if no independant organisation nor lawyers are permitted. In any case, they are held longer than 30 days without seeing a judge, and that is in any case against human rights, whether the rumours of torutre are true or not. To me, it sounds very much like Robben Island, just outside the coast of South Africa. Let's lockup all our porblems, so we know where they are.... And yet again, no other nation in the world can force the US to stop this insanity.
     
  4. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    No one, and no one better. The Kyoto treaty was ridiculous, and out Senate voted 95 - 0 to reject it. We will determine how we will reduce greenhouse emissions, not the rest of the world. Espescially since we have such a large, enormous commercial and industrial based economy that many nations that signed it don't have, it would definitely spurt an economic depression.


    The Democrats wanted a Nuclear freeze during the Col War. Ronal Reagan refused, instead he created more, and by doing so gave us enough strength to oppose the Soviet Union. Eventually the Iron Curtain fell, and it was Reagan who did it, not the Democrats who try to take responsibility for it now and claimed they backed him.


    Because Iraq is a bloated, corrupt body that only about 30% of Americans think is an effective governing body. Not only were the nations opposed to the war now suspected of sellig them banned arms and munitions after the first Gulf War, now we are learning the Oil for Food program, which was meant to help the Iraqi people, was also being swindled by many top U.N. officials. Of course they are keeping tight lipped and are investigating themselves, I think an independent investigation on why billions of dollars either went into their pockets or into Saddam Husseins, and not the Iraqi people.

    The WMD report is as follows by American Inspector David Kaye, we know they had them up to the start of the war, but where they are currently located we don't know. His feelings were that they were relocated to Syria. Recently terrorists ended up with about 17 tons of VX nerve gas in Jordan. The gas came from Syria, who according to counter-terrorist experts does not have the capacity to create VX in almost any quantity, let alone 17 tons of it. If that VX came fom Iraq, smuggeled into nearby Syria and sold to terrorists, everyone who claims Bush lied about the WMD's has a lot of explaining to do, because even worse than Iraq, the terrorists have WMD's, and Bush tried to stop this whereas the Democrats opposed any of his reasons for war.


    Cuba is under embargo until Fidel Castro dies. All American presidents since the embargo was put into place have held this position. Clinton might have done something, but then in 1996 Cuba shot down two Brothers to the Rescue planes over the Florida Straits. We don't want to do anything that will help improve his dictatorship. Once he dies, democracy won't take its place but the US will try to influence any positive changes it can.
     
  5. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    The end of oilsupplies or the effect of the greenhouse effect would have devostating effects on Economy, too. Possibly even more severe than the Kyoto effect. Gouverning is planning the future, and it doesn't look bright at the moment. If all nations decide to do a step back, all coutries would more or less have the same economical backlash as a result. If just US decides not to sign, they will get the upper hand even more, leading to even more imbalance in word politics. And the fact that America wants to cope in its own fashion, doesn't give the right example to the rest of the world, now does it. It even proofs they don't bother about other nations AT ALL! Now, that's not the nation, I'd like to have as the most powerfull in the world!

    I don't think the Arm's race has something to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union. In fact it had nothing to do with the arm's race, it had to do with the Russians (Gorbachov (sp?)) seeing the light. In fact, the amount of arms didn't even matter anymore at the Reagan administration, there were already enough nukes to destroy life on earth...

    And still, it is not to late for the US to sign the treaty anyway. Nukes are out of fashion and no one would forgive America the use of them. Besides, they can'tr be used on terrorists, for obvious reasons. On the other hand, it would be easier to force other nations to sign.

    Stick to the facts Justice, I don't recall any VX interceptions or intelligence of VX in Jordan, nor can I find a refference on the internet. If jou believe otherwise, please specify an article. As for the WMD in Iraq, do you remember the series of X-files? Mulder used to have this poster stating "I want to believe". For now, without any proof, it looks like there is a rise of a subculture who wants to believe the excistance of WMD in Iraq.

    About WMD in the hands of Al-Quaeda (sp?), I don't believe there is a link between Iraq and them. They are of different strains within the Islam and generally don't like each other. Especially not at the fundamentalistic side of the story. And yeah, I must admit that Al-Quaeda probably has WMD, and I don't like it a bit either. But conquering Iraq will not stop them, on the contrary, it will make them even more angry. And although terrorists shood not be negotiated with, that's dangerous and will prove lethal in the near future. Not that I favour the terrorists, I am just realistic about it.

    Cuba.... the paradise in the carabean, fiercely hated by America. Fidel isn't a nice guy, I shood admit that. Indeed, he holds political prisoners and keeps capitalism out, I don't think they deserve the treatment they get from their neigbours. If America hadn't tried to kill him about 15 times, he'd be more benificent, to my best estimation. Personally I don't think Cuba is doing worse than other countries, but it just happens to be in the wrong location.

    Please argue on this one, Justice. I mean, there shood be reasons to condemn Fidel to death. I'd like to hear tham, because old hatreds won't do in this rational world...

    Oh and about that influence you are talking about... I just find it yet another proof Amerca has to interfere in other nation's politics, where they don't let other nations mess with their's. That's what I call abuse of power, and no, you don't get any popularity amongst foreigners with that!
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2004
  6. Justice

    Justice New Member

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  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    OK, there was an Al-Quaeda plot disrupted, but the word "VX" isn't mentioned in the text. And I do believe that such a word would have turned up if the stuff had, since it is the most deadly neurotoxin in existance and the most feared for that. It merely says chemicals, which, if I remember were bought at some commercial chemical companies. These can't be of the toxicity level of VX or even come close to it.
     
  8. Justice

    Justice New Member

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  9. Winky Dink

    Winky Dink New Member

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    I don't hate the U.S. I hate the person who is running it.

    Winky says, vote GWB out of office.
     
  10. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    These statements are theoretical and based on assumptios, yet no proof to your claims. And, even if so, this could only be a limited amount of the total 17 tons, you named earlier. I estimate that normal chlorine could potentially kill the given number of people (several thousands), acting as a poison gas. With 187 tons of VX, no one in the city would have survived, or at least get out unharmed.

    Furthermore, I can't render the reliability of your cource, and still the fact that CNN didn't mention VX, makes it more logical to me, that none occured.
     
  11. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Well, for one you are running the issue in circles, from it didn't happen, to they didn't have VX, and even disputing the claims of the actual reports themselves from the actual people doing the investigation. I can tell you know VX is no joke, it is the deadliest chemical agent ever created. The CNN article even fails to mention the vehicles came from Syria, because i doubt the hack who wrote it wanted to even suggest any connection between Syria and the claims months ago that Iraq moved their WMD's (reports of which included VX nerve gas) into Syria.

    yet you try to lessen the significance by saying chlorine can be just as deadly when used in mass quantities. Not to mention the information was readily available, I havethe feeling you probably didn't even look for it.

    besides, I get most of my news information from either TV news or radio, and only link to internet news sites becuase that's the only way to show people.
     
  12. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Sorry Justice, I am a scientist, I like to go with the facts, and mainly, those who are proven. For instance, there is this thing called impact. Impact is the number given to each journal and indicates the amout of people you will reach with an your story. Besides, news in journals with a high impact number are generally taken more serious than those in minor journals. CNN, in the world news buisiness has the highest impact and is therefore taken the most serious. I can't find anything about VX in relation on the CNN site and therefore I think it is more likely that it wasn't there than otherwise. Another authority in the news buisiness, Reuters also doesn't give any yield with searching for "VX Jordan". On the other hand, I don't know NewsMax, and I cannot check it's reputation. Therefor the impact on me is very little. Besides, in the article you refer to, there is a terrorism expert arguing that a gas that was used was of the type of the corrosive nervegasses and that it could be VX, but he gives no proof for that.

    And indeed, CNN reports the presence of "nerve gas", according to Jordan authority, but also of blistering agent, which VX is both. Furthermore, there were 71 different chemicals found, which makes your claim of 17 tons of VX even more unlikely.

    On the other hand, Reuters did give me this info, countering the claim of a chemical attack
    http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5004289

    In the end, it seems that you will stay at your vision and I at mine, I can argue this issue with you for more than a week, without a satisfactory consensus, so I suggest, we stop. I will, if you don't mind, so I can concentrate more on other things we can "hate America" about :D
     
  13. theoden

    theoden 1st Marshal of the Mark

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    Well Turambar, according to your "impact" based logic, since Rush Limbaugh is by far the most listened to radio personality for current events, he must be taken the most seriously. Secondarily, Foxnews has the highest American rating, so in comparison with CNN's American division, which is different from CNN international, Fox is a more serious and reliable news source domestically than CNN. Further, since papers like ther inquirer have circulations in the millions, and often fall into to the top ten or twenty for American, european, and Global circulation rates, out of thousands and thousands of papers, than we should at leats give some serious consideration to when they say things like "Elvis secretly advising Kerry campaign" or whatever. Source of information is important and should always be considered in ascertaining the truth of a story, but sheer size has little to no impact on whether or not it is true. BTW as for it being a chemical attack, that was confirmed by reports from CNN, fox, Debka, and Newsmax.
     
  14. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    We are disputing this claim, theoden. Indeed, I know that there was to be an attack in Amman (= the Capital, right?), killing thousands. The significance of this is that Justice claimed by this a link to Iraq, the alledged source of the nerve gas. I compete that, at a lack of proof and coverage in the news.

    And about your list of top-ranking news providers in the US... In the end, I think CNN int. will have the most viewers, since they are the world's provider of world news, and with that, a potential of bilions. Furthermore, they do have a reputation to bring news correctly. Indeed, reputation is very important, but those who don't stick to the facts, don't count as news agencies to me. They could be called opinion magazines or visions on current events or something. If you listen closely at the language on CNN, you will discover that they always buid in safety marigins, such as. According to Jordan authority.... or Mr. Clinton claims that.... but it has not been officially confirmed. That is scientifically handling news, and CNN has it, to my taste.
     
  15. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    All news stations do that "according to sources" thing. And, I might add, CNN does not have the best record for being accurate. It came out after the Iraq war started that news correspondents for CNN in Iraq were not telling the entire truth of what went on in that country because they didn't want to make Saddam mad, thus being kicked out of their prime spots in Iraq. But whatever floats your boat...
     
  16. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    Source?
     
  17. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    I don't think the Arm's race has something to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union. In fact it had nothing to do with the arm's race, it had to do with the Russians (Gorbachov (sp?)) seeing the light. In fact, the amount of arms didn't even matter anymore at the Reagan administration, there were already enough nukes to destroy life on earth...

    Gorby did and still does support communism. He never "saw the light" Russian documents show that Russia was spending %40 of their budget to keep up with out nuclear and conventional weapons. They went bankrupt. In fact, their arms program didnt even stop until the kursk event not long ago. They were still building more than their abilty to finance and maintain.


    Source? (the cnn slant)

    this should be enough
    http://www.sptimes.com/2003/04/19/Artsandentertainment/CNN_debate_yields_mor.shtml
     
  18. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Besides, news in journals with a high impact number are generally taken more serious than those in minor journals.

    That is the most vacant kind of basis for quality tat I have ever seen. News should not be based on popularity. This kind of logic would put USA Today on par with nearly any true news reporting body.

    That reuters news report is a quote from a terrorist... thats reliable.. yeah right
    Oh and reuters is so "unbiased" they banned the word terrorist from reports after 9/11 ..
     
  19. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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