Hate America

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by kartaron, Apr 22, 2004.

  1. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Indeed, crucader. Comunism is too often linked to megalomane psychos, such as in Cambodia (Pohl Pot), Russia (Stalin as a prototype) or North Korea (Kim Yong Il, if I'm mistaken). In all the cases I know of, these autocracies turn into mayhem, but it has little to do with the Communism and Marxism ideology.
     
  2. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    What communism and capitalism can't overcome is personal greed.

    In a communistic society, greed is hidden; in a capitalistic one, it is applauded.
     
  3. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Theoretically communism overrides the greed of individuals in the realisation that cooperation is the source of true wealth (crazy talk aint it). The hidden greet is once again the result of advantagetakers in the system.
     
  4. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    I'll admit that I haven't taken any deeply philosophical studies on Communism and Marxism, nor have I read any of Karl Marx's books, but I can't really think of a historical example where Communism has worked.

    I mean, Soviet Russia eventually fell, China has some of the wost problems imaginable when it comes to poverty and human rights, we hardly know anything about North Korea except that they're trying to get bargaining room by creating a nuclear standoff, and we have hundreds of Cubans almost every day trying to escape into America.

    Now, I know Communism still exists, but where is this Utopian society today? Or ever in fact? When has Communism actualy taken roots without a bloodbath of those who opposed it?

    Once again, I could be wrong, but Communism has never had a positive image to it, and I never heard any reference to a society where it has worked.


     
  5. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Vietnam seems okay to me. As for the quote, slice those two paragraphs together and what do you get. Every major country where communism has had a chance, it is met by opposition, mainly from america, OR a tyrant at the top. These are what is stopping the utopian society.


    I dont think that is what is going to happen, although it works in theory, the system has major flaws, and it is a form of Forced Equality, I'd prefer a Meritocratic society.
     
  6. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Until the Korean war I don't think that the US was ever openly involved in any anti-Communist war. And for the most part it was because of Imperialistic expansionism in which the US became involved, we were trying to stop them from taking over other countries.

    The US did go a little Red crazy in the 50's, but to say that the only communist societies that failed were the ones the US opposed is blatantly wrong. In fact we depended on Communist Russia to assist us against Nazi Germany which differed little from the Soviet Union, except for during that time Russia wasn't currently invading all of their neighbors.

    And when it comes to Sky's quote that in Capitalism greed is applauded, I would only agree with that in a small sense. Success is applauded, greed often is frowned apon. I would say that the reason Communism fails is that it is human nature to be greedy, and there will always be too large of a percentage of people who do not want to give everything they have in order for it to be given to everyone else.
     
  7. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    I did not say that communist societies failed because of the US, i said that was one possible fctor, the other being people taking advatage of the system for their own gain, a-la Stalin.

    As for russia aiding the ALLIES (not just the USA) I seem to remember after WW2 ended, there was a little thing called the cold war, in which america used spies and subtrefuge to undermine russia, not saying it was wrong, I'm saying you sure as hell didnt do nothing to oppose them.
     
  8. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Exactly!!!!!

    but the greed is not just that of those who want to keep their possesions. There is always someone who wants power, and there is always someone at the top of the ladder during the social conversion.
     
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Justice, you have to admit, that for a long time during the cold war, the commies were the enemies of The States. There was a time where revoltions would go by, without America interveing in some way. Many of these, especially in South America, lead to fierce dictators (and there is still a big chance that just this is in store for Iraq). The question is of course, whether the current policy concearning the new enemy, would lead to similar situations. After all- there was a good reason to let Saddam Hussein in power, back in '93 (?); the region is highly unstable, and seems to be in need of a strong leader such as Saddam was. And Bush Sr. knew what would come if he'd conquer/occupy Iraq, something Bush Jr. learnt the hard way...
     
  10. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    No state of communism has ever been achieved, and it won't ever. Communism does not work simply because it is based on the untrue idea that men are basically good, and through a series of revolutions and time, will become perfect. Evil people (Stalin, Pot, Lenin, etc.) used this great sounding idea that all would be well and good to grab power. A nation dissatisfied will go for just about anything if times are really bad. Thus they can convince the people to give them all the power, and they get such a tight grip on it that no one dares try to break it. None of them ever wanted communism because it would mean they would lose their power and wealth. And there will always be people like that in the world, thus communism will never work. Great thought, but it's based on faulty principles.

    So what exactly are you saying there, Turambar? That we should intervene all the time? Or never. Make up your mind.
     
  11. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    In a communistic society, greed is hidden; in a capitalistic one, it is applauded.

    The idea that capitalism celebrates greed comes from Ayn Rand. She wrote a series of articles and books (Atlas Shrugged, Fountainhead, etc.) that proclaimed that if everone were inspired by hard work and integrity that they would be rewarded despite their enemies or problems. "the philosophy of greed" Communism becomes the opposite of that. No matter how hard you work or how competant you are, you cant achieve higher than you were preordained.

    the result of advantagetakers in the system.

    Obviously money doesnt distribute itself. At some point all that needs to happen is one person pay a friend or ally more than the system allows. That encourages more cronyism and imbalances the delicate financial structure. Communism is a system than cant work next to a capitalist system. While the capitalist system grows (inflates) the communist system is completely stagnate. That is why communist countries appears to deflate rapidly. That is partly why Russia and China invaded other countries. They needed a periodic influx of new cash, property and labor to be able prop up the system in order to compete in the world market. It's also how most of these countries can manufature goods so cheap without creating inflation. The shock of inflation is partly what collapsed the Russian economy. That and way too many people spending a years salary on Levi's.

    Many of these, especially in South America, lead to fierce dictators (and there is still a big chance that just this is in store for Iraq).

    No doubt about that, Iraqis can see how israel is treated ... Its hard to imagine them making themselves the second biggest target on the map by becoming an ally to the US. The biggest problem is the fact that they are a feudal society. They are devided by tribe, location and religion. Watch Lawrence of Arabia. It's not exactly known for historical accuracy but the ending is topical. When Lawrence tries to unite the arabs under prince Feisal the tribal conflicts between the tribes helped to ensure an allied controlled government. At least junior had the added inertia of 9/11 and a decade of agressive behaviour from Saddam.

    Bush is an interesting guy and im beginning to believe that he doesnt let practical objections stop him from what, to him is idealogically "right". That said I dont understand why liberals hate him so much... he is only marginally more conservative than Clinton. Most of the difference between the two is what he says not what he does. Clinton would never have been able to pass that prescription drug plan because of what the republicans would do to him. Like Nixon going to China.

    Now that I have written about everything but the subject.... the WTO demonstrations are a direct result of how america deals with international politics. We are accused of being leaders of an organization that encourages poverty in 3rd world countries and polution around the world in order to continue our "bourgeois" existence. I think in that context it applies to the discussion at least as much as communism. Tarriffs, trade and the Kyoto treaty are all used in their arguments.
     
  12. aule

    aule The Smithy of the Valar

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    In theory, communism is great, but in real life, it fails horribly because of the added human element. We are NOT by nature "good" and "decent", we are nasty and evil as a whole... the only thing that has any hope of changing that fact is a relationship with The God of the Christians (sorry about that little speil), then there is also the fact that there is almost always a powermonger behind all of thier governments/revolutions which sets it up for collapse from the beginning.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2004
  13. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    If you mean the Christian Church there is just as much of an opportunity and occurance for greed, dishonesty and embezzlement as anywhere else.

    A perfect example is Jim Bakker (and his wife), Jim was on TV preaching the Gospel while spending donation money and nailing his secretary, while Tammy Faye went on shopping sprees.

    Google "Christian Church embezzlement" and see what you get.
    http://www.ctlibrary.com/771
    http://www.churchexecutive.com/2004/02/Embezzlement_can_happen_to_you.asp

    Christianity (ie. the teachings of Christ, not the organized religion) in theory is a good thing, but like Communism, will only truly work if everyone sincerely believes. Unfortunately, it's not in human nature to do that, everyone wants a leg up on other people.

    (PS. I don't want this to become a religious-based argument, we are wandering off topic. Let's try to get it back on topic.)
     
  14. aule

    aule The Smithy of the Valar

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    Ok, so there are always a few bad apples in every batch, that doesn't knock everything else off, does it? Most of the leaders in the Christain church aren't like that... the Bakkers merely got caught up in the enormous success of their ministries and missed the point behind it...
     
  15. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    See, that's the point, whether we're talking about Communism, Capitalism, Christianity, whatever....

    There's nothing really wrong with any of it in theory -- it's the "bad apples" that exploit loopholes in the system to gain the upper hand at the expense of those who suffer...
     
  16. aaron.j.cypher

    aaron.j.cypher Aaron, King of the Flakes

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    Very true Skyanide. The original Communist idea had a good basis: share everything. It was then twisted and exploited and turned into what it was and is today.
     
  17. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    What about cuba? Is that a failed communistic Island, that happens to drift just outside Florida, or are all Americans happy enough to see ccommunism actually work just in sight? And how about the attitude of america towards Cuba, is that still justifyable, or is it just the itch on their back, they just can't get rid of?
     
  18. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    Yeah, it works so great. That's why they're all trying to escape to Florida. And it's not even really communism. It's extreme socialism with a dictator at the head.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2004
  19. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Communism on paper works. Communism at application doesn't, in fact that system can be exploited far worse than almost any other governing body. Heck, people in Russia were getting killed because they tried to save apples for themselves in hidden cellars. There are also extremely horrible human rights issues in communist countries. G.W. Bush okayed about 50 executions during his 8 year term as Governor (I have nothing against and am strongly for the death penalty by the way). It is not uncommon for a country like China to execute several hundred in a day. And I am sure many infractions were not that serious, they were just trying to make an example of people.
     
  20. aule

    aule The Smithy of the Valar

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    I agree with whomever it was that said that the only concieveable reason for anyone to hate the US is that, for the time being, we are "the man on top" and they are jealous of that fact...