Hate America

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by kartaron, Apr 22, 2004.

  1. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    And remember, companies like the red cross are international, not just US based.
     
  2. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    simple per capita distorts the figures, Luxembourg will always lead while china would never have a chance.

    I think the 240B came from tax filings...

    increased infrastructure costs . (ie. .33 sq.km/person in Canada as opposed to .03sq.km/person in the US).

    90% of canadians live within 10 miles of the US border... that offsets some of that cost. Speaking of Canada... they are now considering to allow two american AWOL soldiers political asylum to escape punishment... despite the fact that we have no draft...

    and why every other country in the world should owe the US a debt of gratitude.


    Forget debt, how about a fair shake? We get in a war we are imperialists, We dont get in a war we are racists or isolationists. We bar access to high end weaponry we are hypocrites, we sell weapons and we are war mongers or enablers.

    I dont think that financial aid is a very helpful thing in most cases anyway.. Most countries that we have given money to, dont change the main reasons for their problems anyway... leaving them needy for generations on end. The welfare effect on a national scale. We have given billions to the palestinians with the hope of encouraging a change (poverty produces terrorists right?) but they havent even created simple economic reforms. No private property rights, no rule of law, no freedom of religion or speech.

    What in fact happens to this money is that it becomes fodder to support whatever current regime is in these countries. If those countries get overthrown the new government thinks we have been supporting the dictators like in Venezuela and Haiti. You cant win for trying and nobody believes you because America is Evil. We were so intent on giving aid in Somalia we sent in a couple hundred of our best soldiers and got them involved in a 15th Century feudalistic gang war. Got a bunch of em killed in the process. I think the only other country in there were the Pakistani's. We fought a full on war to liberate Kuwait. We armed the Afghan's to retake their country and they won. Those three things got a religious nutbag to start a holy war. Yeah, the world has a heck of a way to say thanks.

    The French were there with us in Kuwait... (id say they helped but Id be lying) So where's their love note from Osama? Im sure most of the things we do internationally are self serving in one way or another.. We are so big that it is impossible not to.. We trade with virtually every nation on the globe. The ones we dont trade with are notable by exception (North Korea, etc) We trade openly with countries that by law dont trade fairly with us. We loan money and forgive debts, we dedicate a large portion of our military to defend stragetic partners. We still have open immigration and borders when others dont, and when international or UN law is broken, America is the primary enforcer despite the fact that the UN and the world court is largely an anti-american body.
     
  3. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    International Red Cross was mentioned so I decided to look up the numbers. Since the Red Cross breaks up the organization so minutely the only money spent in america (3 million dollars) by this organization in 2002 was "spreading knowledge and garnering support for the ICRC's mandate and activities"

    Might be a little off due to conversion from Swiss Francs

    total budget 1,285 million dollars
    all government donations 708 million dollars
    american federal donations 234 million dollars

    the remaining money came from small private donations and growth from investments.

    No real point just numbers

    So where's their love note from Osama? Before I get flamed for that I dont mean that I want the french bombed... Just pointing out that only us, the Brits and the Spaniards (why them?) are getting his attention. Dont forget that Russia has been having a decade long war with terrorists that doesnt get nearly as much attention as our war.
     
  4. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    But aid comes from taxes, does it not? China is a bad example, it is barely considered industrialized. I'm mainly referring to Western countries. People are quick to point out how heavily taxed Canadians and Brits are, yet by "per capita" AND GNP the US (government) shirks its responsibility.

    I'm not certain where you got 90% in 10 miles from, but that is incorrect. Take the populations of Montreal and Toronto and the surrounding area, and you have well over 20% of Canada's population and neither are within 10 miles of the US. Nonetheless, we still build roads and highways for the other people in remote places. Less than 5% of Canada's population has ever used the Trans-Canada highway (the WORLD's longest national highway at 4860 miles) -- Who do you suppose maintains it?

    As for asylum, I haven't seen the details of this case; all I can say is that everyone is entitled to a hearing who has made the request forn asylum. Funny, when Russian Army deserters came to the US asking for asylum, it was considered/granted. Why should this be different?

    The "debt" reference comes in response to Justice's previous comments; America revels in the self-perception that it is being the "Big Brother" and saviour to the world. Not everyone wants a big brother. Even when the person needs the help. That and the fact that no matter how hard you try, you can't please everyone.

    An analogy would be my position on the board. As a mod (or manager now), people would come to me with a problem or an issue, and I would gladly do what I can to help the person. I do what I can, the person is happy, says thank you, I say "you're welcome" or "no problem", and that's it. I don't take out a thread titled "Look at ME, look what I have done, I'm so nice and helpful". If you go around patting yourself on the back and beating your chest, sooner or later people get annoyed.

    I agree with what you've said in this paragraph, but keep in mind that I didn't bring foreign aid into the conversation.

    "Anti-American"? I think that statement is a little paranoid. I would venture to say that it is just not "Pro-American". While the average American's attitude is "either you're with us or against us", to the outside world, countries and governments resent being bullied.
     
  5. Loki the Demon

    Loki the Demon "Belgium, Man!"

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    Last edited: Apr 28, 2004
  6. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Funny that you should mention taxes, but the US has some of the lowest tax rates on the planet. Far too many of our people are either poor, or actually living off our welfare system not intended for long term compensation.

    If you're poor, you pay almost no taxes. If you're rich, you end up paying as high as 50% or more. But when many countries of a more Socialist tye governmen charge more than the US from everybody, then you do get a higher per capita reading on foreign aide, especially when Americans that don't pay taxes are included in our count.

    Also, rebuilding and restructuring of countries (currently under way in Iraq and Afghanistan) should also be counted as Foreign aide, although we are not just giving money to people and letting them spend it. We also had peace keeping missions in Liberia and Haiti recently, which i also consider foreign aide. Not to mention we have tens of millions of illegal aliens and illegal immigrants (there is a difference) living in our borders, each of them not paying income, state, or federal tax that also get to benefit from what we pay for, like schools, roads, hospitals, social programs, and law enforcement. All of that takes a head swimming toll on what we budget.

    It goes like this, at work I write more tickets than anyone else who I work with. I work four days a week at Campus Safety. But Roy, who has an outside job and works only on Thursday, has a higher per hour ratio than I have which was recently introduced to us. However, I work more days, one of them is on Sunday when we don't write tickets, and I write more than anyone else, but on the board Roy writes more than me, even though he doesn't. I never said "when you tally it up, Americans pay more per person than anyone else in the world in foreign aide!" It was, "we pay more." Period. Wasn't making a federal case out of it, we do.


    The obvious difference I see is that the Russians did not have a contract with the U.S. government on the services they were going to render, like these guys did.


    Well, for one, the U.N. is sending a racist Jew hating United States hating Foreign Minister to assess the situation in Iraq for one thing. Here is a quote from Dr. Naji Sabri himself in his address to the UN General Assembly in September 19, 2002.

    Wow. what a great guy to go and report to the UN in an "unbiased" manner. Some screws are loose at the UN, and I won't even go into the corruption scandal over the Oil for Food program which has recently been exposed.
     
  7. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    You are mistaken. The Canadian tax system is the exact same way, and if you have a low income you don't pay taxes here either.And if you're a high income earner, even in the US, if you're paying 50% of your income in taxes, you need an accountant. My mother is an accountant living in Windsor, ont. and she does taxes for a great many US clients, at best it's 45% even if the person has nothing to write off. In Canada, a high income earner (like myself) would pay 43% with no deductions; with a moderate amount of deductions (married, RRSP contributions, education write-off) that number drops to 32%.

    The US has to do this, it is one of the reasons it is "invading" in the first place. When you bomb and destroy and overthrow a country, you're expected to do this. it's hardly charity. And the US is not the only country involved in this, although the US is the only country you seem to recognize.

    How many illegals go to school, the hospital and social programs? Not too many, that's a reach. We have illegals here too. They usually end up doing the grunt work that average citizens don't want to do anyways.

    No, but you were boasting about how the US was giving the most. If you're boasting, make it something to be boastful about.

    I work with 5000 other people, we all make good wages. If we each gave $5 a week to charity in a payroll deduction, that would be $25000 a week. If a 500 employee company had each give $25 a week, that would be $12500, half the amount of the big company.

    So who is more generous? So should the big company get "special privilege" because it gives so much? Should it be excused for say, destroying the environment? Hostile takovers of other companies?

    Credit is given where credit is due. Don't expect everyone to be in awe of how much you as a country collectively give, if you were the guy that was giving the $25 a week you wouldn't be too impressed with the people paying $5.

    Canada doesn't have a contract with the US on who can or cannot seek asylum.

    This isn't the only person being sent to assess the situation. They can't all be stacked in the US's favour.
     
  8. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    As for immigrants, you wouldnt believe the amount of asylum seekers who come to britian. I dont know the exact figures but we're, if not top, are in the top three nations they go to. And with a country as small as ours, with an already disproportionate population. We spend ridiculous amounts of our taxes trying to help them, let alon the millions who come in illegally.

    And sky couldnt have put it better with the $5, $25 dollar thing. Forget numbers for a minute. Our nations are spending more of our taxes on it than you. plain and simple. Plus he mentioned his role as a moderator. He doesnt very well go around fixing problems that people dont ask him to. He helps those who ask for it. Which is probably one of the main reason the US gets a bad reputation. Theyre seen as butting in, unwanted help. The reigimes your trying to dislodge put out propoganda and even if you get rid of them, the message sticks with the people, who see US troops in the streets, an charred friends in bomb damage. Sure youre doing good, and sure youre helping people, but untill they actually want you to do it, they resent you for it.
     
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Ahh... I don't get this discussion; wasn't it supposed to be about why the rest of the world hates america??? It hasn't got to do with foreign aid, I can tell you. Sure, I want to talk about foregn aid and NGO's on another term, but that is not under discussion here.

    My impression is that the USA is much too involved in the world, they want to tell and decide what's right and wrong. They want to remake the world to the US constitution, and that violates souvereignity other nations. Yes, they are a nation with very (too) much power, and they are not affraid to use it. Furthermore, economic interests have gained too much the upper hand in gouvernmental decision making. What happened to the environment, human rights, interests of other nations? I very much doubt that America will see to it that they get their share. And about the offensive moves against Afghanistan, Iraq (2nd time), Cuba, Vietnam and what not, the nobility of these acts, is very much doubtfull. In some way, there is always lurking the American interest, that they have the opportunity to protect. The first time in Iraq is explainable, but then I do have to ask, why America didn't make any intervention at other coflicts. I only have to name Tibet, why doesn't America attack or boycot China?

    And what is it anyway with America and that guardianship of the world idea? The world already has a guardian, the United Nations. And indeed, it is very tragic that the members don't always agree with America. the UN is in that way more balanced as a guardian than the USA. And it annoys the world that America has always it's own way with UN resolutions; Iraq, the Nuclear Weapon convenant (which they force other coutries to sign...) or the UN environmental terms. They are there for the whole world, including the US of A. This and much more gives impression of a megalomane and arrogant country.

    Freedom of the world? What is freedom when you have to do what a nation is telling you to? Where do you think all that (US) foreign aid is going?
     
  10. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    This is why we were on the topic of foreign aid:

     
  11. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    "My impression is that the USA is much too involved in the world, they want to tell and decide what's right and wrong. They want to remake the world to the US constitution, and that violates souvereignity other nations. Yes, they are a nation with very (too) much power, and they are not affraid to use it. "

    Most of our influence on other countries is about fair exchange. They need money or services and dont have anything to barter with. So we want to see some kind of return in exchange for our investment in their country. In exchange for a few hundred million.. we want them to have a constitution to protect rights, have a civilian police force, have an indepentant justice system. Maybe in 20 years they will have some goods to export and bring some real money into their country.

    Credit is given where credit is due. Don't expect everyone to be in awe of how much you as a country collectively give, if you were the guy that was giving the $25 a week you wouldn't be too impressed with the people paying $5.


    I dont disagree with that although there are other factors involved.

    The world already has a guardian, the United Nations. And indeed, it is very tragic that the members don't always agree with America. the UN is in that way more balanced as a guardian than the USA.

    The UN is anti-western by design. The equal vote system allows a tyrannical dictator to cancel out the vote of a free country. The veto power of the US, Russia and a few others is the only balancing factor. The choices of the Un have been consistantly against freedom. They supported the growth of Communism and Socialism in South America, dictatorships in Africa and Asia, and defends terroristic nations in the middle east.

    The fact that america has supporters in the UN cant offset the fact that there are too many despots with a vote. Thats the reason why America operates outside the UN so often. Syria (a country that harbors terrorists and slavers) getting a prominant position on the UN security council and France refusing to pass the Iraq war bill because Saddam paid off Chirac are examples of why the UN is pointless.

    NATO, on the other hand, works. It negotiates between equal countries on trade and other issues.. When a country gets out of line (even the US) it opens avenues for the other member nations to counter or solve the dispute(like the stupid steel tarriffs).

    How much of distain might actually be caused by the openness of our political system? Most of the time political decisions are aired openly for anyone to critique or challenge. Every bill is online and on CSPAN the next day. Our news is aired daily around the world. People catching segments of stories, actions or statements without the context would be inspired to assume guilt or innocence without the facts, just like I have a hard time deciphering the parliamentary arguments between Blair and his opponents. I can only imagine what the current political argument between Bush and Kerry looks like.
     
  12. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Wow, this is a good debate.
     
  13. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Since when was the USA so pure of supporting terrorists and dictators?

    The US funded, supplied and trained Osama Bin Laden to fight the russians in afghanistan. They didnt give a damn about his beliefs then, they didnt care that he was a radical. They were so scared of communism that they did whatever they could.
    As for dictators, I seem to remember the leader of the southern-vietnamese, Diem, who had the full support of the US, incuding funding, aid, military support etc. He killed more innocents than the commmunists did. He enforced a policy (with the support of the US) to relocate half of the population away from their homes, for little more reason than to keep them away from the communists. The whole damn coutry celebrated whn he got killed. He was a dictator and the US loved him for it.

    I dont call that support of freedom, do you?
     
  14. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    For this, tell me what is wrong about communism and/or socialism? And about dictatorship: Every so often the CIA helps a tyran in the velvet. And just don't start about terroristic nations, anywhere. Just why do you think they started their collective hobby? Could it be because of... America's urge to bring it's constitution to the world, or rather, make them listen to the most powerfull nation in the world? It's just an idea, but I guess it won't proof far from the truth...
     
  15. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    the southern-vietnamese, Diem, who had the full support of the US
    supplied and trained Osama Bin Laden to fight the russians

    tell me what is wrong about communism

    Im not sure where to start. How about the fact that they script every moment of their populaces lives? Uhh... whats good about Communism? I understand that the concept of communism is a the utopia but as in most things the idea is not the reality. Ill withdraw socialism since it uses a foundation of democracy normally.



    The existance of poverty is our ticket to wealth; the world coudn't cope with 6 billion rich guys Tur's Sig
    I wondered about this so I looked it up: the World’s gross product is only $39 trillions (liquidable assets and property) world’s natural capital at about $500 trillion (non-liquid, natural or human value)
    That means instant communism around the world would average out to around $7000 annual per person, with about $70,000 in personal assets home, car. This is all assuming a loss-less transferral and no reinvestment in growth. numbers from World Council for Corporate Governance
     
  16. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    the southern-vietnamese, Diem, who had the full support of the US
    supplied and trained Osama Bin Laden to fight the russians


    Communism (Russia/China) had taken over East Germany, Poland , Ukrain, Bosnia, Romania, Tibet, a lot of 'istans in the Middle East, and North Korea. They were threatening to gain access to more stragetically important naval ports in the Middle East and Asia. We supported maniacs in order to stop that. Just because it's called the Cold War doesnt mean it wasnt a real war. We did everything we could think of in order not to come to open conflict with Russia and China. It's not like there is a book that tells presidents what to do in these situations.

    As for Diem ... im not up on my S Vietnam history, maybe somebody else can tackle that.
     
  17. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    It's not that- it's the fact that the world couldn't supply the natural recources to support 6 billion rich people and the lifstyle that goes with it. Imagine the speed at which the oil supply would evaporate with 4 billion cars. Or the the annual food production, it's impossible to raise the foodproduction to the level of 6 bilion Americans. It's just impossible.

    At the end, I think capitalism isn't the answer too. Inevertably it will be our downfall, with a shift of power to the multinationals, the drainage of certain recources, the development of China (most likely, at this point). The problem with capitalism is that money is first and foremost important, at the cost of people or nations, in the guise of health, liberty, poverty (enevertably linked to capitalism). On the other hand comunism is another base, with more durable solutions. It maintains a nation, though up 'till now few nations implemented it correctly. Maybe the only place where comunism "works" is Cuba, though I have to say that not all is hapyness around there at the moment. But if you want to compare the flaws of Cuba to those of the US, it would be a draw...
     
  18. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Id like to point out that we havent really touched the WTO demonstrations and the militant eco-terrorist people. These guys are the real curiosity... at least the 3rd world has reason (however misplaced) to be bitter or jealous... whats up with these guys.


    it's impossible to raise the food production to the level of 6 bilion Americans
    Ive read that if all the world lived close enough, Texas could grow enough food to feed the world.. Its not production but delivery thats the problem. But im vague anough on where and when I read that tham im not sure its true.
     
  19. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    That would be a topic for another thread, that would definitely be off- topic...
     
  20. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Actually Kartaron it couldnt, despite its size. The world alone does not have enough natural resources. That includes the right soils, weather patterns and just plain seed.

    If the whole world were to live by the "luxurious" middle class american ideals theyre supposedly trying to give the rest of the world. We would need five times the resources of the entire planet.

    As for communism. IN THEORY it works. The only thing that gives us a negative view of communism is people like Stalin. The people who take advantage of the system in order to get power and luxury, thats the hidden capitalism in the problem (Personally i think that is inevitable with a jump to communism, the major problem with that system). After the vietnamese war, the whole country was BETTER OFF than before because of the system, and america were so forceful to try and help the vietnamese from this fate (all they were actually doing was quaking in fear that communism would ruin their lives, not anyone elses)